The Blair Hornstine Project

Written: June 7, 2003
Last Updated: November 19, 2003

The ongoing saga of Moorestown High School Valedictorian, Blair Hornstine.

For those of you who are not familiar with Blair Hornstine, here is a quick summary. For additional information on the subject, please visit the links section at the end of this entry. Skip to here you want to see the Blair H. Project trailer.

Blair Hornstine, 18, is a senior at Moorestown High School (MHS) in New Jersey. In May, 2003, she sued her school district to be named the sole valedictorian of her graduating class. Blair has been diagnosed with a condition similar to chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS). She is thus classified as a disabled student, which by law, affords her certain accomodations from her school district. For instance, she is able to go to school for a few hours a day, has private, at-home tutors, and does not have to take the state-required gym class. In place of gym class, she can take additional Advanced Placement (AP) courses. Furthermore, her classes are not graded by the normal curriculum teachers, but by her private tutors, who were chosen for and approved by the school district.

The Valedictorian Issue

On paper, Blair has excelled in the academic sense, garnering "23 A+'s, 9 A's, and 1 A-" throughout her high school career and scoring a 1570 on the SAT. Blair is also the recipient of a number of awards and scholarships. She carried the Olympic Torch a few years ago and was awarded the Congressional Award Gold Medal, which requires "400 hours of voluntary public service, 200 hours of personal development activities, 200 hours of physical fitness, and four consecutive days and nights of an exploration or expedition." Her cumulative Grade Point Average (GPA) is percentage points ahead of the second-place student, Kenneth Mirkin, 4.689 to 4.634.

There are contending facts about both students' GPA. On one hand, the school district says that there was no way that Kenneth could have matched Blair's GPA, given the fact that she was able to take more weighted classes and skip certain mandatory classes like gym. They also state that having private in-house tutors who graded much of her work gave Blair an advantage over her peers. On the other hand, those in Blair's camp contend that Kenneth could have had a higher GPA if he had gotten better grades. They point out the fact that Blair's school curriculum was approved by the school board and that she should win the valedictorian award because she had, at the end of seven semesters the highest culmulative GPA of all her classmates.

Here's a quick primer on calculating GPA. In most high schools, extra weight is added for AP or Honors classes when computing one's GPA. For instance, an A in AP History would count as a 5 instead of a 4. An A in Gym class, on the other hand, would count as a 4, because it is not an Honors or AP course. Thus, one can easily see how how Blair can be percentage points ahead of Kenneth in the calcuation for the top GPA if she replaced gym with an AP class. Consider the following sample table comparing Blair and Kenneth's courseload and GPA.

Sample GPA Calculation
Student	AP Math	AP English	AP History	AP Science	AP Language	Elective #1	Elective #2	Gym/Replacement	Total GPA
Blair	5	5	5	5	5	4	4	5	(38 / 8) = 4.75
Kenneth	5	5	5	5	5	4	4	4	(37 / 8) = 4.625

This table is merely an example on how Blair could have received a higher GPA than Kenny while taking the same courses and getting the same grades. The availability of Judge Wolfson's ruling allows us to look more closely at Kenneth and Blair's grades. You'll see evidence that it wasn't so clear cut that replacing gym class with an extra AP class would have leveled the GPA situatin with the two students. I'll keep this table here for historical purposes, but be sure to read the ruling for more information!

Some people in the community felt that Blair's various affordances created an uneven academic playing field (unsubstantiated posts have been made in a number of web forums pointing to Kenneth Mirkin's mother) They went to School Superintendent Paul Kadri with their grievances, and he -- following his own investigation -- agreed. He proposed to name Hornstine and Mirkin (and possibly a third student) co-valedictorians at Moorestown's June 19 graduation. It is important to note that district policy states that the person with the highest GPA is to be named valedictorian. In offering his proposal for the sharing of the title, Kadri was trying to change school policy during the year.

Litigation

Apparently, when Blair heard about the School Board's planning, she was none too please and decided to take legal action. Please note that it was Blair who decided to file the federal lawsuit, not her Superior Court Judge father, Louis Hornstine. Whether or not it was her decision or the decision of her parents, there is little doubt that Judge Hornstine assisted his daughter with the court case. In suing the school district to be named the sole valedictorian, Hornstine argued that Kadri was discriminating against disabled students. Sharing the valedictorian title, she argued, would have "left unprotected the next disabled student." The lawsuit was "an act of necessity, aimed at saving others from apathy." In short, she had the highest GPA, disabled or not, so she does not need to share with the valedictorian title with anyone.

Judge Wolfson's Ruling

The ruling judge in the case, Freda Wolfson, agreed with Blair and her attorney, Edwin A. Jacobs, Jr. Wolfson's 43-page opinion was scathing to those school officials and those among the community who supported Kadri, saying:

"They have lost sight of the fact that [Hornstine], unlike her peers, suffers from a debilitating medical condition, which has never been disputed by the [school] board, and that her accommodations were aimed at putting her on a level playing field with her healthy classmates. The defendants should revel in the success of their [special-education] program and the academic star it has produced; instead, they seek to diminish the honor that she has rightly earned."

We now have a copy of Judge Wolfson's 43-page ruling in the court case! The document was found on the Rutger's Law web site, and I have taken the liberty to copy it to my web site [in the event that the original document is lost]. There are a number of interesting facts related to the case, and I encourage everyone who is interested to read it. From a legal standpoint, Ms. Hornstine does have a valid point. Given the evidence provided in the ruling, even I might have ruled in favor of Hornstine to be named the sole valedictorian of her graduating class.

Wolfson argues that the "uneven playing field" was in fact even, because Hornstine's curriculum was approved by the school board. Hornstine and her laywer are now seeking $2.5 to $2.7 million dollars in compensatory and punitive damages. Note that next year's school budget for Moorestown will be $50.2 million dollars. If successful, her lawsuit will represent nearly 5% of next year's school budget.

Some readers have written in that Kadri was not planning on having Hornstine sharing the award and that he was only considering Mirkin as the sole valedictorian. This is alluded to in Judge Wolfson's ruling, copied below:

"Board and Superintendent Kadri have made clear that they have no intention of allowing plaintiff to be the sole valedictorian, even though she has earned the highest weighted G.P.A. after seven semesters. Worse yet, the fact that Kadri informed K.M. and not plaintiff that he was being considered for the award raises the possibility that the Board may not select plaintiff for the honor at all. Indeed, the proposed policy amendment is vague enough to allow the Board to avoid naming the student with the highest seventh semester weighted G.P.A. as one of the valedictorians. Perhaps with this possibility in mind, defense counsel at oral argument did not state on the record that the Board definitely would name plaintiff one of the valedictorians."

It is a possibility that the School Board would not have named Hornstine the valedictorian, not a certainty. If Kadri was going to give Mirkin the valedictorian award outright, then of course, he was in the wrong. Throughout the ruling, Wolfson continually states the case that there would be an imbalance if the school were to award two valedictorian spots, one for the non-disabled student and one for the disabled student:

"If the Board were to name another valedictorian along with plaintiff, it would be sending the message loud and clear: 'we have two valedictorians this year a disabled one, and a non-disabled one.'"

There is outrage on both sides of the Hornstine issue around the world. Some agree firmly on the side of Hornstine and the judge. This was a clear case of discrimination. Blair deserved the award fair and square, and it was stupid for the School Board to try to meddle with the situation. Others have mixed opinions. Some agree on a legal standpoint that Hornstine should be named valedictorian, but disagree on the desire to seek damages from the lawsuit. Others are decidely against Hornstine, calling her a whiny, greedy little brat. They have left scathing comments on various newsgroups, forums, and websites. There's even an online petition asking Harvard University to rescind her admission. It is an interesting fact that Kenneth Mirkin, the second-placed student, will also be attending Harvard in the Fall with Blair.

Plagiarism

But wait, there's more! In the beginning of June, it was discovered that Blair had failed to attribute and cite her sources in five articles that she had written for the Courier Post, a local newspaper in her county. She lifted near complete paragraphs from speaches by former President Clinton, Supreme Court Justices, and global analysts.

Here are samples of her writing and the original sources:

Blair Hornstine Thanksgiving November 26, 2002 column	President Clinton's Thanksgiving 2000 Proclamation
At Thanksgiving this year, Americans must carry on that tradition of sharing not only with family and friends but also with those in need throughout their communities. Every generation of Americans has benefited from the generosity, talents, efforts and contributions of their fellow citizens. All of us have been enriched by the diverse cultures, traditions and beliefs of the millions of people who, by birth or by choice, have come to call American their home. All of us are beneficiaries of our founders' wisdom and of the service and sacrifice of our men and women in uniform. While Americans are an independent people, we are interdependent as well, and our greatest achievements are those that we have accomplished together. As we celebrate Thanksgiving, let us remember with gratitude that, despite our differences, each of us is a member of a larger American family and that, working together, there is nothing we cannot accomplish.	At Thanksgiving this year and every year, in worship services and family celebrations across our country, Americans carry on that tradition of giving, sharing not only with family and friends, but also with those in need throughout their communities. Every generation of Americans has benefited from the generosity, talents, efforts and contributions of their fellow citizens. All of us have been enriched by the diverse cultures, traditions and beliefs of the millions of people who, by birth or choice, have come to call America their home. All of us are beneficiaries of our founders' Wisdom and of the service and sacrifice of our men and women in uniform. While Americans are an independent people, we are interdependent as well, and our greatest achievements are those we have accomplished together. As we celebrate Thanksgiving, let us remember with gratitude that despite our differences in background, age, politics or race, each of us is a member of our larger American family and that, working together, there is nothing we cannot accomplish in this promising new century.
Blair Hornstine November 12 article on censorship	U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Brennan's 1989 decision in Texas v. Johnson
If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that public entities may not prohibit expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable.	If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable.

Blair Hornstine Thanksgiving November 26, 2002 column

President Clinton's Thanksgiving 2000 Proclamation

At Thanksgiving this year, Americans must carry on that tradition of sharing not only with family and friends but also with those in need throughout their communities. Every generation of Americans has benefited from the generosity, talents, efforts and contributions of their fellow citizens. All of us have been enriched by the diverse cultures, traditions and beliefs of the millions of people who, by birth or by choice, have come to call American their home.

All of us are beneficiaries of our founders' wisdom and of the service and sacrifice of our men and women in uniform. While Americans are an independent people, we are interdependent as well, and our greatest achievements are those that we have accomplished together. As we celebrate Thanksgiving, let us remember with gratitude that, despite our differences, each of us is a member of a larger American family and that, working together, there is nothing we cannot accomplish.

At Thanksgiving this year and every year, in worship services and family celebrations across our country, Americans carry on that tradition of giving, sharing not only with family and friends, but also with those in need throughout their communities.

Every generation of Americans has benefited from the generosity, talents, efforts and contributions of their fellow citizens. All of us have been enriched by the diverse cultures, traditions and beliefs of the millions of people who, by birth or choice, have come to call America their home. All of us are beneficiaries of our founders' Wisdom and of the service and sacrifice of our men and women in uniform. While Americans are an independent people, we are interdependent as well, and our greatest achievements are those we have accomplished together.

As we celebrate Thanksgiving, let us remember with gratitude that despite our differences in background, age, politics or race, each of us is a member of our larger American family and that, working together, there is nothing we cannot accomplish in this promising new century.

Blair Hornstine November 12 article on censorship

U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Brennan's 1989 decision in Texas v. Johnson

If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that public entities may not prohibit expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable.

If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable.

In a letter written to the Courier Post, Blair admits her guilt, but chalks it up to an ignorance of the rules of journalism.

"If I see further," wrote scientist Isaac Newton to his colleague Robert Hooke, "it is because I stand on the shoulders of giants."

This statement, meant to suggest that Newton's achievement had been predicated upon the discoveries and findings of his predecessors, underscores a fundamental academic truism that remains true even in our time. All knowledge is constructed upon scholarship bequeathed to us by past generations. Newton's statement, therefore, captures the very essence of academia, and it simultaneously highlights an often-overlooked, sometimes invisible, but tremendously significant part of scholarly research: the footnote.

The importance of properly citing works that have been relied upon to make new conclusions cannot be understated. Proper citations are important. Itis essential to give proper credit to those whose findings serve as the foundations for new arguments and achievements. Just as movie credits thank the actors and production crew that make the creation of the latest Hollywood blockbuster possible, footnotes are a means of recognizing the importance of others in making academic advances.

Recently, I was advised by the editors of the Courier-Post that I had not properly cited work for articles that I submitted. These voluntary articles were not written for class assignments. I kept notes on what I had read. When finalizing my thoughts, I, like most every teenager who has use of a computer, cut and pasted my ideas together. I erroneously thought the way I had submitted the articles was appropriate. I now realize that I was mistaken. I was incorrect in also thinking that news articles didn't require as strict citation scrutiny as most school assignments because there was no place for footnotes or end notes.

I am not a professional journalist. I was a 17-year-old with no experience in writing newspaper articles. Upon reflection, I am now cognizant that proper citation allows scholars of the future to constantly reevaluate and reexamine academic works.

Footnotes provide not only an outline of the logic of the author, but also a detailed road map to the past. Like bread crumbs dropped along a path, footnotes and citations allow aspiring academics to follow previous scholarship to better enhance our general knowledge.

If Newton's pronouncement is to remain true, proper citations are essential. If we are to truly augment our general knowledge in any field ... science, history or literature, to name a few ... footnoting is necessary. Footnotes are the glue that holds our knowledge together; without them, academic progress would surely be stunted. I hope that others learn from my unfortunate, unintentional omissions.

The revelation of this fact caused some people to jump from viewing Blair as a victim to seeing her as a perpetrator. People began wondering if Blair had plagiarized on school papers or scholarship applications. Of course, this is a possibility, not a certainty. What is certain is that within days, the online petition, which was stalled at 1400 votes, surged to over 2000 votes. Messages boards and forums were reflooded with articles and comments about Blair. Even Harvard has been notified of the plagiarism issue, by none other than Blair herself!

Blair's supporters state that the plagiarism issue is much ado about nothing. One of her lawyers, Edwin J. Jacobs, Jr., states that "It was a whole lot of nothing. She wrote some fluff pieces for a kid-chat column.... We have more important things to deal with."

As we will soon see, while the plagiarism issue might not have have anything to do with her being named the valedictorian, it does have a lot to do with the admissions process at a major university such as Harvard. Plagiarism is not a trivial issue, and students caught plagiarizing have been known to have been expelled from and/or denied admission into Universities.

Graduation

In an article on the Philly Inquirer, it appears that Ms. Hornstine will not be attending graduation on June 19. Her lawyer, Edwin Jacobs, writes:

"... The hostile environment at the school has traumatized Blair both physically and emotionally, to the point that she cannot and will not attend the graduation ceremonies."

On papers, students appear eager to put this story behind them and focus on their other accomplishments. Without Hornstine at graduation, the ceremonies went off without much incident. Her named was not mentioned during the proceedings and Salutorian, Kenneth Mirkin, gave a speech noting the accomplishments of the class as a whole.

Harvard Rescinds Admission

On July 11th, the newswaves were hit again with an update on the Blair Hornstine saga. According to the Harvard Crimson, Harvard has rescinded its offer of admission to Blair Hornstine! Though Harvard officials would not comment on the decision, it appears it was made after news of Blair's plagiarism surfaced.

The issue of plagiarism, though separate from the valedictorian suit, arose because of the media scrutiny on Blair Hornstine. Had she not pushed so hard to be named valedictorian, it is highly unlikely that her acts of plagiarism would have been uncovered. In the end, Harvard had no choice; they had to rescind her admission. Plagiarism is a serious academic issue. Letting her in would have said to the world that Harvard is willing to dismiss past transgressions if the student is otherwise worthy. They didn't do it for Gina Grant, and they didn't do it for Blair.

The Blair camp has attempted to put a spin on this latest update. In a Newsweek article Blair's lawyer, Edwin Jabobs, states that "Blair had decided to tender a withdrawal of her application simply because of the rabid, negative publicity on that campus," and that "Blair has been exploring other alternatives, namely campuses less hostile than Harvard." The article also mentions that Hornstine is already taking college-level courses at an undisclosed campus.

Settlement

August 19, 2003: The news reports that the two parties have agreed to a settlement. Originally seeking 2.7 million dollars in damages, Blair Hornstine will get $60,000. Take $45,000 in lawyer's fees, and Blair Hornstine is looking at $15,000 for herself. According to the article, in "agreeing to the out-of-court settlement, the Moorestown Board of Education admitted no wrongdoing and said it accepted the agreement in part to limit its legal costs."

My Thoughts

Before I go on with my thoughts, I'm going to make one assumptions: the School Board was considering co-valedictorians: Kenneth Mirkin and Blair Hornstine. Some readers have been insistent that because Kenneth was the only student who received a letter saying that he would be "considered" as valedictorian that he would have been the sole recipient of that honor. I acknowledge that possibility, but I believe that the Board was going to honor both Kenneth and Blair.

Hornstine should be aware of the difference between spirit of the law and letter of the law. I was speaking with a police officer the day after my friend's car was vandalized and violated by a 5-pound rock. I noticed that he had a telescoping baton attached to his belt. As a police officer, of course, he's allowed to carry one, but telescoping batons are illegal in California. It is a misdemeanor offence for first-times to carry such a weapon. Depending on the severity of your offence (i.e. number of weapons you might be carrying), however, the charge could be changed to a felony offence, which is no laughing matter in California. The policeman described the difference between officers who follow the spirit of the law versus those who follow the letter of the law. The former might inform a person in possession of a wooden baton that such items are illegal in the State of California and gently "ask" them to get rid of it. The officer who follows the letter of the law would impound the weapon and arrest the guy for being in possession of a banned weapon. A misdemeanor or felony charge later, that person's life has changed irrevocably.

How does this relate to the Hornstine case? Those in the community that complained to the school, Superintendent Kadri, Hornstine and her lawyers all share part of the blame for creating this situation. Though it might have started with the community and Kadri, it was Blair Hornstine who escalated the issue to national awareness. Yes, she might have rightfully been the valedictorian of Mooretown High School, or she might simply have been the valedictorian of her school of one, Blair Hornstine High School. She still had to make the decision on how to deal with the situation, and the path she took was through litigation. By appealing to the letter of the law, Hornstine uncorked a series of events that put her and the Moorestown community into the national spotlight. Her life has now changed irrevocably, for better or worse, now that she has been indexed by Google and the subject of countless emails, lettes, articles, and web forum comments. All of her previous accomplishments will now be tainted with questions of, "Was she really disabled?" or "Did she plagiarize anything else on her papers or applications?" or "Now what is this whiny little brat complaining about?"

This is no longer a case of who is the valedictorian of Moorestown High School, but a case of who can best use and manipulate the system. The community and Kadri tried [and failed] to alter the system to accomodate multiple valedictorians, and Hornstine successfully worked the system to have her named the sole valedictorian. Whether or not she fought for her right as a disabled student or simply as an overachiever who wanted to be named number one is irrelevant. She and her lawyers did whatever it took within the letter of the law to remain number one. As many people have stated, there was another choice for her to take -- sharing the award. Given our society's thirst to have a winner and a loser, one might think that there is shame in sharing, but there is and should be none in this case. Both Kenneth and Blair could have easily shared the same stage as co-valedictorians. Yes, there might have been mutterings of disapproval from some members of the community that Hornstine didn't deserve it due to her accomodations, but those thoughts and utterances would have been kept private. Similarly, Hornstine might have told to her family that she really was number one. She might have indeed gone to Harvard still thinking that. Upon her first semester, of course, she would have quickly realized how useless -- shared or not -- the title of valedictorian is. There's always going to be someone smarter and more accomplished than you, Blair. The important point to take from this is that everything would have remained private... no national spotlight, no revealing of plagiarism, no backlash from the media, no Harvard rescinding your admission. Nothing would have happened had she decided to share the valedictorian award.

She had the choice to follow the spirit of the law, but chose the other path. For this, she must be held responsible and accountable for the life that follows. In my opinion, there is no community to blame, Mrs. Mirkin to blame, no Paul Kadri to blame, no disability to blame -- there is no one to blame but yourself. Face up to it and move on with your life, Blair.

The Blair H. Project

Now, let's get to something funny out of this ludicrous lawsuit. Inspired by true events, The Blair Hornstine Project trailer is a tongue-in-cheek look at the whole situation. Last night, Rae and I had just finished updating her documentary project on Qiu Jin and were talking about Blair's predicament. Rae and Randy have had to deal with my ranting and raving about Blair for the past month. Rae suggested that instead of ranting and raving, I should channel my energies towards something creative. A few hours later, we produced an exclusive trailer for the Internet audience! Click on the link below to view the trailer!

View the exclusive trailer!

If you don't get the trailer, you might want to look at this page.

Links

For additional information and background on the Blair Hornstine case, please visit the following links.

Comments

To read comments from previous months, check out the following links.

3M--

The public is long-disabused of Blair Hornstine, but like any sycophant, you mistakenly assumed others continued to share your misguided zeal for the object of your "affection." Acting on this assumption, you became a minor, comedic foil who exposed, defined and continually underscored defects in Blair's character. In so doing, you helped erode public sympathy for her and the Hornstine family.

You are an ignorant, vituperative harpy who trades in falsehood and innuendo. By predictably and consistently failing to substantiate your "arguments" or reveal promised information, you prove yourself nothing more than an uninteresting and tedious gossip. By the way, it is the passing of your own fifteen minutes of ignominy that you mark, not Blair's.

--posted by TM @ Tuesday, November 4 2003, 9:39 am EST

Your vocabulary is definitely better than mine....but I will get to the chase:

BULL SHIT TO YOU! You have no ideal what you are speaking about. You must be Cretin's long lost AH buddy.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, November 4 2003, 10:23 am EST

3M--

The root of vulgarity is ignorance. You combine these two unattractive character traits to showcase your lack of credibility.

--posted by TM @ Tuesday, November 4 2003, 10:28 am EST

Bravo TM for stating many of us feel in such a succinct fashion. It seems I remember Mrs. MM stating that Blair's $15,000 was all going to pay lawyers' fees but now it has gone to charitable causes? Oh what tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. Or something like that.

--posted by B.S. Detector @ Tuesday, November 4 2003, 11:58 am EST

How fast you forget and how fast you like to make up stories. $45,000 went to the lawyers. $15,000 was given to BLH. You guys make up all the stories and spins you want. The truth is the truth. Spins are not part of it. You cannot change the truth. For all of you Blair detractors and non-well wishers, BLH is doing great. She doesn't need the $15,000 and certainly doesn't need any of you.

Things are getting to be fun now. Listening to your BS is part of it. She has gotten on with her life and so has her family, friends and me. I am just here as a support and checking up on this site.

When the many of you ever find out who I am, I do hope it is in person. I will bring tons of paper towels, underwear and bathroom tissue. What a fun time it could be. Give it up. I am the authority. Believe it! If not I G N O R E me. I keep this blog going. So stop adding to my importance.

Have fun children! Play nice....

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, November 4 2003, 21:39 pm EST

MMMMM, is Blair doing her own work at college?

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, November 5 2003, 0:11 am EST

3M--

You will bring paper towels, underwear and toilet paper while shouting "Give it up. I am the authority. Believe it!" My dear, however will we know it's you....

--posted by TM @ Wednesday, November 5 2003, 7:21 am EST

I spent severl hours with Judge H this weekend before he began teaching Judges at the Judicial college program. BLH is happy and doing well. She is feeling good and taking three courses (yeah, Cretin is doing the work for her ). I THINK the school is on a trimester and that is the normal load.

I know this is not the report you want to hear, but truth is truth.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, November 5 2003, 9:05 am EST

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, November 5 2003, 9:06 am EST

Well, golly.

Mrs. M.M. haven't heard from you in a while... you should write more often.

What I find funny about all of this is the number of people who haven't given up and moved on, and who despise the fact that your support is unwavering. All of us should have such a friend.

And before you all get an excederin headache trying to equate admiration for loyalty with blind agreement with everything anyone says, don't. I just believe that the loyalty Mrs. M.M. has shown in spite of the myriad personal attacks and insults is admirable. Sue me.

Isn't it time to move on?

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Wednesday, November 5 2003, 13:30 pm EST

Haha, you should take your own advice!

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, November 5 2003, 17:48 pm EST

From what I read on the Stella site it looks like the 15,000 plus will go to a very good cause, the IRS. Seems when one settles a case with a monetary payout you own taxes on the entire amount, not just the part you pocket. Sure hope those book and movie deals prove to be lucrative.

By the way, anyone else on this board ever get injunctive relief without suing for any money damages. Let alone a figure that by its very absurdity guarantees that the merits of the case are going to be overlooked?

--posted by JoyLeaf @ Wednesday, November 5 2003, 18:59 pm EST

Ahhhhhhhh, Cretin, have you not noticed that I have not been here? Are you so myopic that your days run together? I took my own advice... I came to see, and find it interesting that so many terriers disquised as human beings are still around. Thought I'd comment on that while asking someone to contact me... As for your whole "I'm smarter than you are thing" I hope it works for you in the real world, fella. And, where your sarcasm, caustic attitude and colorful childishness are concerned, I don't concern myself with you. It's like having an ass kicking contest with a one legged man, and frankly, cretin, you're not worth the time it would consume to explain all that to you, so, suffice it to say that I still think you live up to your nick name admirably, and that I still believe you'll one day wind up inside the walls of some God forsaken place over your holier than thou can't do no wrong never met a problem I couldn't insult louder and longer than anyone else attitude. In other words, I think you suck wind, dude, and I hope a tree falls on your tricycle.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Wednesday, November 5 2003, 20:00 pm EST

JoyLeaf--

An injunction is an equitable remedy for a broad range of claims arising out of fact-specific circumstances. Because an injunction is a potentially powerful remedy, the movant must meet a heightened standard of review and the court will narrowly tailor any relief to address a specific threatend irreparable harm, not compensable by money alone, in connection with a pending claim the movant is likely to sustain.

As implied by the applicable standard of review, monetary damages are not a corolary of a claim for injunctive relief. It is perhaps understandable, although nevertheless error, for a person to form a firm opinion regarding the merits of an underlying claim based upon whether a movant receives preliminary injunctive relief, ultiimately prevails or even receives any money. In short, a prudent person will carefully evaluate the individual claims and defenses of a litigant in the appropriate procedural context before forming an opinion regarding the overall merit of an action.

With that contextual framework, and to address your specific question, there are many claims where injunctive relief is the primary, and often the only remedy sought in the action. With that in mind, one might reasonably argue that Blair should have focused upon what logically appears to be the most appropiate remedy for the alleged discrimination; i.e., injunctive relief. One might argue further that Blair's trumpeted claim for $2,700,000.00 in compensatory and punitive damages appears at first blush to be excessive, if not unseemly under the circumstances, particularly for the "Harvard-bound" child of a judge and a self-proclaimed innocent who "does not need the money."

As a practical matter, is it the size of the initial demand that distracted the public from a meaningful discussion of the "merits," or the modest settlement that followed revelations of serial, word-for-word plagiarism and the recission of a college acceptance? If the former, who was responsible for the initial demand? If the latter, can one make a creditable case that the modest settlement was the primary factor in the alleged public failure to "vet" the merits of Blair's underlying claim?

Indeed, is the implicit premise of your question valid? Did the public correctly judge that Blair's claims, whatever their "legal" merit, lacked any compelling public interest -- how much empathy do we feel for the homeowner who sues a twelve year-old for $100,000.00 because he cut accross a newly-seeded lawn? Is it significant that disablility advocacy groups chose not to weigh in on Blair's claims?

--posted by TM @ Wednesday, November 5 2003, 23:03 pm EST

yawn

--posted by cretin @ Thursday, November 6 2003, 11:23 am EST

I work with and for people with developmental disabilities, which often come along with physical disabilities and mental health concerns. A whole different kettle of fish from any diagnosis that Blair has. And while not a part of the school system, I am aware that some of the families have sought injunctions to keep the school from not playing by the rules and or following an IEP (Individualized Education Plan). It has on occasion cost the school money to comply with the injunction. But at no time has this caused controversy in the community let alone across the nation. The merits of main streaming, the costs and the benefits are all valid debate points but not getting the school to comply with their own rules and the laws.

I too noted that not one person or group that represents the disabled felt a need to stand by Blair and any point she wanted to make about the disabled. Not a one of the parent networks or self advocacy groups I work with felt that Blair should not have gotten her injunction or that she had not earned the title and chance to give the speech. Not a one of them felt she deserved to prevail for any monetary damages. And yes I think any point Blair and her family were making about the school not playing by the rules was lost as soon as they asked for such a large sum. I do not know what the effect would have been on Morristown and her class but I suspect that Blair could have given her speech to her class, injunction in hand and would likely be at Harvard now if they had not ignited a firestorm and drawn so much negative attention.. I and most of my friends and clients with disabilities just want the same chances as the rest the population, certainly not notoriety, or a reputation as greedy, grasping, and out for all we can get. Even if we are sometimes. But wanting everything is a personal outlook and not a statement we want to make for all the disabled.

--posted by JoyLeaf @ Thursday, November 6 2003, 19:11 pm EST

JoyLeaf--

I fully agree with your comments. BTW, I am unaware whether any of the "pre-incident" media puff-pieces about Blair (or the articles announcing her many awards) talk very much, if at all, about her disability. And although she had difficulty attending her own local high school, there has been scant mention on this site (or anywhere else) regarding what accomodations she needed while she took college-level summer courses at Stanford, Penn and Dickinson, much less at her present school.

--posted by TM @ Thursday, November 6 2003, 21:58 pm EST

...tosses flies in the gaping hole...

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Thursday, November 6 2003, 22:47 pm EST

Oh no. It's MOORESTOWN, not Morristown! You don't know how many people have asked me what it's like to live in North Jersey... I just had to clear that up!

SDS, are you STILL around??? Isn't it time to move on? Blair is old news. Aren't there any casinos for you to run??

--posted by cretin @ Friday, November 7 2003, 10:29 am EST

Yanno, I think I'll stick around just to tick you off. After all, since I'm a lazy injun I'll just be able to play here all the time...

And I'll have lots of time to think of really great insults and what not.... because, frankly, cretin, I couldn't think as slow as you if I were dead.

BOING!

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Friday, November 7 2003, 23:34 pm EST

Ha ha ha. Who is the one with syphilis??? Not me!!!

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, November 8 2003, 4:11 am EST

As I have no access to your medical records, Tom, I suppose that you could say that, or even prove it, however, since I most certainly don't have an issue with a disease that has it's origins in middle age Europe, I'd say it was far more likely that it was you, and not I.

Of course, with your preferences, it's also far more likely that you will succumb to certain autoimmune system maladies. Pity those fellas you don't tell... but then after all, you are part of the "It's all about ME" generation, and can't be expected to know what humility and integrity are.

Beyond that, since you know so much about me, and seem to want folks to think you're privy to my medical records, why not tell me which and how many medals I have for combat service to my country? Bear in mind, now, that this is verifiable information.

In other words...cretin...really, go back to your cave, since you're so fond of acting like a cave man.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, November 8 2003, 8:03 am EST

S. D-s. It's always nice to hear from you, with your knowledge, information and Wit! Keep on truckin'

Cretin: You are still useless and a credit to your name. Keep on being an A**h**e. It helps all of us to add humor to this blog and see how the mediocre of this world live and think. Keep up your poor thoughts and allow us to DOC or Yawn (DOC means Dump on Cretin).

Joyleaf: BLH should only have to pay taxes on what SHE receives and keeps. If the proceeds were directly donated to charity, she is allowed to take a deduction for same.

--posted by Mrs. M.M. @ Saturday, November 8 2003, 15:00 pm EST

All that fuss just to donate some money to charity? Sounds like a waste of time to me!!!

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 0:37 am EST

Haha, SDS thinks I'm a homosexual! Let's not project, SDS. It's not nice.

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 0:39 am EST

You're not? Funny, with your seeming fixation on my sexual well being, I could have sworn you had an abnormal intrest in the male of the species...

I don't project, cretin, I call em as I see em, and the way I see you... well, it doesn't matter... you'll just live up to your name... and while it does add to the appearance of humor on the thread, it certainly does detract from all of you "wonderful imput."

Pity...

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 1:08 am EST

yawn... Isn't it time to move on? I can't belive you are still visiting this blog!

Interesting that this thread's token Indian isn't even an Indian! Haha, from now on, I'm going to call myself black.

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 1:42 am EST

Well, at least you got the part about the token thing right. I'm proud of my heritage... damn proud, and I'm willing to stand on my integrity in any court room anywhere at anytime...

As for calling yourself black... you really shouldn't, that beak nose and curly hair just don't cut it, and besides, you'd be insulting a fine race of people. I suggest you read "Black Like Me" to get just a snippit of what it's like to be a black person in this country. Particularlly when you have no concept of reality. If you're posts have proven anything, they've proven that...

Oh, and I'm never gonna leave now, I'm gonna stick around and torment you until hell freezed over.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 4:27 am EST

lmao.... freezes, not freezed... I crack myself up.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 4:28 am EST

Wrong again 3M. The settlement is Blair’s as is the tax liability. The fact that the lawyers take
their cut off the top does not change that, as some of the people I know found to their dismay.
And contributing the money to charity may get you a deduction but never the full amount that
you donate.
Now if the settlement had been for real damages that would not be income. IE the drunk who
drove into our front porch has court ordered restitution to make. Since it is to repair real and
verifiable damages it is not income and we have no tax liability. Our friend who was injured in
an accident owns nothing on the money awarded for the medical expenses, again a real loss, but
does own on the money awarded as punitive damages.

--posted by JoyLeaf @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 8:39 am EST

Wondering why all of you are still here? As long as you are, I can ask: has anyone who will tell found the Blair Witch? Or, is that the Blair B----?

--posted by Wondering @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 10:13 am EST

Joy Leaf: What you don't know about tax relief, BLH real damages, charity is causing you to criticize me. However, you best check your facts, legal papers, etc, as well as the IRS before you negate my statements.

Because Miss H does not meet the criteria of the "people" you work with, does not mean that you understand what went on in this case. Please don't compare apples to fruit cup. Wrong again, am I? Yuk. What you don't know is hurting your writings, thoughts and incorrect info that you spew.

IF you truly work with the developmental disabled as an educated worker, your knowledge is not tax relief related. Therefore, stick with what you know, and get a better education so you don't look like such a fool.

Wondering: To your dismay Miss H is happily enscounced in a top, top, top university doing well, being protected from name calling numskulls like you looking for her by her friends and administration. She not only is doing well academically but is involved with extra curricular activities and a good social life. Sorry to spoil your life!

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 13:25 pm EST

Didn't man originate in Africa? Doesn't that make me African-American? I'm damn proud of my heritage, too.

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 13:55 pm EST

MMM, you claim that Blair is attending a "top, top, top" university. Earlier, you claimed that she was attending a top 40 university. Which is it? As a student at a "top, top, top" university, I know that merely being in the top 40 would not warrant that description.

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 13:56 pm EST

Legal settlements are fully taxed at the full amount of the settlement. An individual tax filer must report such on their 1099 form. Payments for legal fees are not tax deductible.

DO I HAVE TO PAY TAX TO THE IRS ON MY LEGAL SETTLEMENT OR COURT AWARD?
Whether you have to pay tax to the IRS on the court award or legal settlement depends on what it is for. After August 20, 1996 a legal settlement or court award received is only IRS tax free if on account of physical injury or physical sickness.

http://www.wwwebtax.com/income/legal_settlements_court_awards.htm

DOES A PERSON PAY FEDERAL INCOME TAXES ON AMOUNTS RECEIVED AS A RESULT OF AN OUT OF COURT SETTLEMENT?
One of the tax acts signed into law during 1996 changed the law with respect to the types of damage judgments that will be taxable. For settlements awarded after 8/20/96, only compensatory damages paid on account of physical injury will be tax free. Punitive damages and damages paid on account of personal injuries which are not physical injuries will be fully taxable to the recipient.

http://www.mdtaxes.com/answerl.html

Other payments. Other types of miscellaneous income, such as legal settlements and prizes, are often reported in Box 7 instead of Box 3, Other Income on Form 1099-MISC.

http://www.hrblock.com/presscenter/facts/taxfact4.jsp

CAN I TAKE A TAX DEDUCTION FOR LEGAL FEES ON MY IRS TAX RETURN?
Legal fees for personal matters are not tax deductible on your IRS tax return.

http://www.wwwebtax.com/deductions_miscellaneous/legal_fees.htm

--posted by IMHO @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 14:12 pm EST

The Hornstine case was an out-of-court settlement based on an original claim of discrimination...not physical harm, illness or injury. The settlement qualifies as a taxable event.

--posted by IMHO @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 14:15 pm EST

Darn those pesky tax facts!

--posted by B.S. Detector @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 14:39 pm EST

Damn facts in general. Every time I open my mouth, put pen to paper or fingers to the keyboard those goddarn facts come back to bite me in the butt. I guess I don't know what I'm talking about after all. Guess I have to own up to the fact that I am just a troll.

--posted by YouSaidIt @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 14:49 pm EST

Whether the young Ms. Hornstine is at a "top, top, top university" or John Doe Community College, the real bottom line is that her family's arrogance - the refusal to graciously share the spotlight for the valedictorian slot, and then topped by the complete and utter gall to move ahead to sue the school district for $2.7 million AFTER she got her "sole valedictorian" wish - is what has caused her to be forever labeled a PARIAH. If there was EVER any merit to this case being about the rights of the disabled, she would have sued for only ONE DOLLAR. But it is clear that this case was NEVER really about principle, only arrogance, selfishness, and greed.

Meanwhile, truly heroic individuals like David R. Bernstein and other "sole valedictorians", plus equally wonderful and brave young men and women are continuing to die every day in dangerous places like Iraq. That is a genuine tragedy.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Iraq-Toll.html

Whatever Ms. Hornstine will achieve in the future will ALWAYS be linked to the fact that she sued her school district to be the "sole valedictorian." And that decision cost her dearly - she didn't even attend her own high school graduation, and then lost the ultimate prize, her chance to walk those hallowed halls at Harvard.

Hey, Dad Hornstine, that was some Really Bad advice to your kid to sue. Was it worth it?

--posted by UallGetReal @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 15:38 pm EST

No. It makes you a byproduct of a loveless act between two people who, if they had known what you would become, would have considered a coat hanger over a bassinett.

I feel sorry for your mother, and father. They can only grimace should they read your garbage, and pray that one day you'll learn the difference between intelligence and integrity.

I'll make this easy for you cretin. I don't care what you think, say or do. Nothing is sacred to you, and you have no ability to step out of the cast you have created for yourself. It's sad that someone with such potential chose to throw it away living up to an imaginary nick name on a web blog about a trival matter not relevant to life events. You "passion for bashin" is only outweighted by "lies for surprise" tactics, and overall childish attitude and writing.

Perhaps when you grow up you'll realize that regardless of what you say to people, and how you address them, ultimately you address yourself and describe your own mentality when you chose to act the fool. At least you live up to the nickname...unfortunately, for everyone else, that would be living down.

I couldn't think as slow as you if I were dead.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 17:47 pm EST

UallGetReal: Will you learn the facts before commentin...Miss H did not sue to be "sole" valedictorian. She sued to be Valedictorian, sole, co, trio, quatro, etc.

BLH is getting the ultimate prize, but you will have to wait to see what it is!!! (Is Harvard the ultimate? wait and see)

Dad Hornstine's advice has reduced his college tuition contribution by at least one half...so put that in your bong and smoke it.

Amazing what all of you don't know and are still seeking. If you all were on the positive track, you would hear the positive and not be bogged down by attempts at stomping on her. And if she wore perfume and your noses worked.....

Now I find most of the comments here hilarious! Get a new song.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 18:30 pm EST

yawn....

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 19:08 pm EST

SDS, at least my parents for PEOPLE! That is more than you can say about yours...

Let's see. I don't have syphilis, and I'm not an alcoholic. What do you have going for yourself?

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 19:09 pm EST

Blair is "...doing well academically" taking a full load at a "top, top, top" (apparently non-Ivy) university while participating in extra curricular activities and having a good social life, apparently unencumbered by the security and "psychological consultants" she needed only several weeks ago. What happened to the girl who was physically unable to attend many of her classes at the local high school? Is this the same girl who lay exhausted in her bed, unable to fully take advantage of social activities while she attended Stanford after her junior year or when she went on the senior class trip several months ago? After what by any measure must have been a stressful summer, Blair appears to be doing much better.... Did the Hornstine family put their house on the market yet?

--posted by TM @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 19:22 pm EST

"(apparently non-Ivy)...
apparently unencumbered by the security and "psychological consultants" she needed only several weeks ago....
who lay exhausted in her bed,.."

Where do you get such thoughts? Twisting words? Get a life.

NO; Are you interested in buying it?

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 19:34 pm EST

Which goes to show what you know cretin... I don't drink, (never have, saw no point in it), I have no sexually transmitted diseases...and my family history is a matter of great personal pride. We have a Medal of Honor winner, various military heros, a bonafied Govenor...many trail blazers and explorers, and many successful people, some from my mother's side, and some from my fathers' side. My paternal great grandfather is a man of some historical significance.

My deceased wife and our daughter were killed by an alcholic white man. I could add that he was also a Jew, and you can all call me racist, but you know what, death doesn't have a religion.

Now, cretin, you think you know so much. Every point I just made is a matter of public record. Knock yourself out.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 19:41 pm EST

"My point is clearly made when you want to discuss what accomodations that Dickinson, etc. made for her. Security was the largest! She is tucked away in an academic setting where many will not know her and hopefully, it will remain that way until at least the end of her Freshman year. University administrators find that she is not chosing to alienate herself or mold public opinion...She is there to get an education. Privacy is the advice school officials, security personnel and physcological consultants regard as the best step for her futhering her life." (posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, September 22 2003, 19:34 pm EDT)

--posted by IMHO @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 19:49 pm EST

Mrs MM ... so who is twisting their own previos words?

--posted by IMHO @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 19:51 pm EST

Mrs MM ... you did state that they were putting their house on the market ... let's revisit your supposdly informed words (note to others - Mrs MM is often confuses fact with fantasy):

"I heard their house is on the market. MM, can you verify?" [posted by cretin @ Friday, September 26 2003, 2:37 am EDT]

"Not yet, will be. Was always supposed to be as last child left for college. Home is 6 BR and 7 1/2 baths, if I counted correctly. Maybe now there is additional impetus to sell quicker! Cretin, are you interested" [posted by 3M @ Friday, September 26 2003, 9:25 am EDT]

--posted by IMHO @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 19:55 pm EST

IMHO-- Thank you.

3M-- People remember what you say, they just don't believe it. What type of medically necessary accomodations does Blair need? BTW, have you "settled" on where you live, how old you are, what you do for a living?

--posted by TM @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 19:58 pm EST

The crux of the issue is that the Hornstine family DID CHOOSE to sue for $2.7 million rather than for ONE DOLLAR which have made the case much more about principle - the rights of the disabled - rather than simply a matter of complete arrogance and greed.

And to try to put any positive spin on the matter of Dad Hornstine saving 1/2 the tuition money that Harvard would have cost is utterly absurd. Is that cost savings worth the heartache he surely brought to his own child, making her a PARIAH? How much did missing her own high school graduation ceremony, having her home vandalized, and being driven out of Harvard's freshman class SAVE the Hornstine family?

The young woman's name is a virtual Scarlet Letter and will forever be linked to her father's terribly poor and self-serving advice.

--posted by UallGetReal @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 20:19 pm EST

...and BTW, wouldn't it have calmed at least some public antipathy if Blair had issued a simple press release to the effect that she was donating her portion of the settlement proceeds to charity?

--posted by TM @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 20:26 pm EST

...but that implies that she in fact actually donated her settlemnet proceeds to charity.

--posted by TM @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 20:29 pm EST

"My deceased wife and our daughter were killed by an alcholic white man. I could add that he was also a Jew, and you can all call me racist, but you know what, death doesn't have a religion. "

You know what? My ancestors were scalped by Indians. Not even the women and children were spared. What do you have to say about that?

It doesn't make me racist, because death hath no race.

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 20:48 pm EST

There will likely be a modest amount of money left over from the $15,000 that Blair took for her portion of the settlement. She will be paying Uncle Sam a nice percentage of the total settlement of $60,000. Mybe she will buy a few winter coats to distribute to those less fortunate. She need not turn to Mrs. MM for advice or direction. Mrs MM has already proven to be less than reliable.

--posted by IMHO @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 20:50 pm EST

So - SDS - are you now remarried? With a second family?

--posted by wthey @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 22:16 pm EST

My deceased wife and our daughter were killed in 1984... in the ensuing 19 years I have moved forward... it's what people do.

The loss is no less, nor is the pain, and to ask such questions, and ignore the obvious is not only pointless, it is cruel and goes to character. What does it say about yours, wthey?

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 23:54 pm EST

My question was just to square your earlier statement - "I have a beautiful wife, three homes, nice cars, and damned if I haven't been to prison yet." [posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, June 16 2003, 5:26 am EDT]

--posted by wthey @ Sunday, November 9 2003, 23:59 pm EST

cretin, no, that doesn't make you a racist. I wonder, do you know the origin of scalping? I doubt it.

My people did not scalp. My ancestors did no harm to your family, nor did they deprive you of your home, or land, or peace.

My people have been relegated by yours in a fashion that made even the Holocaust seem mild in comparison.

What makes you a racist, cretin, is that you take sterotypes and try to insult me with them. What makes you an idiot is that if you knew half as much as you think you know, you'd know that my people, and in particular, my Tribe, do not share in the fates of many or our brothern. While there are many issues which face our future, the childish sexual innuendos and barbs have no effect, other than to illustrate your complete lack of adult integrity.

This is not cowboys and indians, cretin, and if it were you would already have lost, and I'll tell you why. The difference between you and I is simple, I know what pain is, and I know what reality is, and I know what truth is. You, unfortunately, seem stuck in the adolescent name calling, sexual fixation stage of a 13 year old. I'd bet you were the social outcast, and your rage is at what you see as your own oppression by people and families that you perceive as your tormentors. You see me as such because I won't let you simply be the idiot you protray. That's fine with me cretin, maybe you'll meet your own sense of morality by tossing pointless insults at me. If you do, I will wish you well, and if you don't, I will still wish you well, the difference being that you will see even that as an insult.

What makes you a racist is your ignorance. What makes you pathetic is the fact that you thrive on it.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, November 10 2003, 0:05 am EST

"...ignore the obvious..."

What part of that, exactly, wthey, didn't you understand?

Since I have alluded to my life in past statements, it's rather blatently obvious that I have moved on. Asking such pointless questions lessons your "squaring" statement, defending such questions only highlights the ignorance that would foster such things in the first place.

Since you're so busy looking back wthey, why don't you look all the way back, and read every word I ever posted... I believe the information about my deceased wife and our daughter has already been posted... I could be wrong... but then again, the question is pointless as I refer to my wife as my wife, and to my deceased wife as my deceased wife. It's in the nuance, wthey. Pay attention.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, November 10 2003, 0:11 am EST

SDS, my people have been relegated by yours in a fashion that made even the Trail of Tears seem mild in comparison.

Every word that comes out of your mouth convinces me even more of your stupidity. You are probably a dirty old man sitting in a prison somewhere. I at least have an excuse to be here, as I grew up in Moorestown. What is YOUR excuse?

--posted by cretin @ Monday, November 10 2003, 1:15 am EST

'Cuse, S. D-S. I am using your lines and paraphrazing some to reply to the naysayers who still want BLH to suffer outrageous torment, be a pariah, wear a Scarlet Letter (isn't that a little much?)etc.
There is no excuse for their constant criticism and "no"-it-all behavior excepot being pathetic.

So here goes: "You, unfortunately, seem stuck in the adolescent name calling, fixation stage of a 13 year old. I'd bet you are/were social outcasts, and your rage is at what you see as your own oppression by people and families that you perceive as your tormentors. What makes you pathetic is the fact that you thrive on it." Your lives cannot go on because you have none or just feel so insecure, jealous and needy that you will never gain the success BLH and others will attain. You are pitiful, but I love to read your "SH** because I see the dimwits of this world and can further reflect on why there are/were Idi Amins, Saddam Husseins, Bin Ladins, Hitlers, Klu Klux Klan.

BLH is happibly earning a Unversity education and the house is being prepared to put on the sales market,as was always planned. So put that back in that bong....

P.S. I always find it so interesting that so many here believe they know how much taxes she is paying, her Dad's repsonsibility and what color underwear she is wearing. Get a life. I love to hear your BS and accept the fact that your don't believe me...IT IS ONLY BECAUSE I KNOW AND YOU DON'T! TUFF!

--posted by Mrs. M.M. @ Monday, November 10 2003, 13:15 pm EST

Is Blair "attending classes" or actually "matriculating" at a university? What type of disability accomodation does blair have from the school? Surely those questions can be answered....

--posted by TM @ Monday, November 10 2003, 13:50 pm EST

My detectors are going off at an alarming rate. During high school Blair was too ill/frail/disabled/fatigued to attend school full-timeor take regular classes. Her father even stated that in one class, "the papers were killing her." Wasn't that the basis of her whole special ed program and subsequent suit? She also was portrayed as a shy girl with no social life and no desire for one.

Now, according to Mrs. MM, Blair is taking a full load in college, involved in extra cirricular activities and has a full social life. First, let me say that this is happy turn of events for Blair. However, one wonders how this could come about and some inescapable conclusions arise: 1) BLH and family were gaming the high school system all along just as many thought; 2) maybe, as mentioned in an article, Blair's Dad was making her a "basket case" and now that she is away from home she can finally relax and be a normal, bright teenager; 3)Munchhausen by proxy? or 4)Mrs. MM doesn't know anything and none of what she/he has said about Blair is the truth anyway.

--posted by B.S. Detector @ Monday, November 10 2003, 15:53 pm EST

-- BINGO!

--posted by TM @ Monday, November 10 2003, 16:01 pm EST

Your people, cretin? You denied them. You say you're an atheist. You don't have people. Comparing yourself to me is simply rediculous. My people did not come to the middle east and oppress the Jews. My people did not come to Europe to oppress the Jews, and for you to imply otherwise shows the vapidity of your lies, and the shallowness of you as an individual and person.

We already knew that, but you had to prove it, didn't you?

Final statements, cretin, are a dangerous thing. You don't know heartache and fear, and the vicious decimation of your people. I have family whose lossed numbered into the hudreds, and my tribe lost thousands upon thousands upon the Trail of Tears. Your implication that you somehow have an experience that rivals such memories is only proof further, of your ignorance.

Do yourself a favor cretin, and get off of my heritage. The pitiful likes of you are helpless to remove the nobility of my people and the dignity of their existence. You couldtn't if you tried because what we are goes beyond what you know... and what you'll experience in this life.

You, on the other hand, know nothing because you are nothing, nor will you ever be. Waste of flesh is best you'll ever be. Pathetic to the end.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, November 10 2003, 17:18 pm EST

Oh, an answer about why I'm here. It's a free country, built on the broken murdered backs of my countrymen, one of whom, you are not.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, November 10 2003, 17:22 pm EST

TM: For a person, no one wants to believe, it strikes me funny that you, too, ask me questions. Blair is taking three courses: Latin, Art History (some period, I forget) and another course. She is a full matriculating student. The faculty and administration are aware of her problems and as of this point, no special accomodations are being made for her (with the excepotion of three courses).

Now,BS " according to Mrs. MM, Blair is taking a full load in college, involved in extra cirricular activities and has a full social life." That doesn't mean she is out smoking the weed until the wee hours, plugging into the beer or sleeping with every or any Tom, Dick and Harry. A full social life for her could be going to the movies once a week and to another social event once a week. Her extra curricular activities could be one or two with a get togther, meeting, etc., once or twice a month or week or whatever. She has a very normal social life for a scholar Freshman student at a pressure/hgh academic university, and is very involved as is necessary in one particular extra activity. Is it charitable? Next chapter.

)"Mrs. MM doesn't know anything and none of what she/he has said about Blair is the truth anyway." I know you are attempting to harass me into saying something that I don't want to reveal, but I am smarter than that.

So BINGO to both of you, and I raise you because I am far above you in knowledge and smarts.

And when you do find out where she is matriculating, most of you will not belive it (expression), since it might be contrary to public opinion, news reports, fellow students, etc. I wish I were able to see the faces of some of you when it comes out....I will laugh myself silly at the morans and "no"-it-alls, naysayers, etc...Ho Hum

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, November 10 2003, 17:42 pm EST

Cretin, as a Jewish Person, you are a disgrace to your family, society and other Jewish people. Knock it off criticizing the American Indian or any other minority!

--posted by Mrs. M.M. @ Monday, November 10 2003, 17:49 pm EST

Since the smallest minority is the individual, shouldn't you stop criticizing ME???

SDS, this country was built on the broken, murdered backs of MY countrymen!!! You don't know oppression. Please stop implying that you do...

--posted by cretin @ Monday, November 10 2003, 19:32 pm EST

MM, I am an atheist. I don't know how that makes me Jewish. Were some of my ancestors Jewish? Yes. But to say that I am Jewish puts you in the rank of Adolph himself...

--posted by cretin @ Monday, November 10 2003, 19:35 pm EST

Cretin: I bet you make your family proud. And how can YOU speak about disgraces like plagiarism? Please take the chip off your shoulder. I have the feeling that you either come from a broken home or a mixed marriage. If, so, please get some help. Don't allow yourself to ruin your life.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, November 10 2003, 20:17 pm EST

Mixed marriage? Sounds kind of racist to me.

And I do make my family proud! Thanks for noticing.

--posted by cretin @ Monday, November 10 2003, 20:51 pm EST

3M--

I agree that many readers will be surprised when they learn where Blair is going to school, perhaps less so after they understand the school has a more tolerant attitude towards plagiarism than many other reputable schools in the region.

It is heartening to learn that Blair can allegedly handle three college-level courses at a "top, top, top" university without any accomodation (BTW, where's the usual frosh English or writing class?). How many times did Blair take and complete three academic courses, at the high school and without any accomodation, in any one semester?

--posted by TM @ Monday, November 10 2003, 22:30 pm EST

There is no doubt that she plagiarized articles in the Courier Post newspaper, but she did NOT plagiarize with respect to her school papers or university apps. Therefore, many schools called it "much ado about nothing." Plagiarism had no bearing on any academics and thus, many, many schools blew it off. I don't want to hear your opinion on this. It is fact. So, your opinion is not carrying weight.

Freshman English/writing, etc? Don't know. Maybe an AP course was accepted. Maybe that is the third course, I can't remember. Maybe another semester. Maybe not required.

Blair ALWAYS had to take more than three courses a semester in high school. I know that she took at least two courses during the summer sessions, so possibly three over a semester is similar.

Why do you discuss these things with me, ask me questions, and then call me a buffoon? You are giving me the respect I deserve, whether you want to admit it or not. So take a position on me and go with it. Stop flip flopping. You know I know. You just don't want to believe.

Believe me, TM, She is doing well and not studying to be a hairdresser, mechanic, etc., as some have suggested. With her AP, brains, etc., she will earn her undergraduate degree before 4 years are up. I bet that by 2007, instead of graduating from undergrad, she will be well into post grad work....maybe if her health is good, she will increase her course load and end up with a Masters or such by 2007. That will blow some minds.Her drive and mind can do it. Let's hope her physicial being supports her.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, November 10 2003, 23:00 pm EST

MMM, I am going to cut to the chase. I know you think that Blair is smart. I don't argue that. But you also think she is some sort of genius. What you have to understand is that EVERY high school has a valedictorian. Thousands of students score in the 1500s on the SAT (even I did!). But when you go to college, you realize that you are truly a small fish in a BIG pond. I have realized that. I am sure that Blair is on her way to realizing that. The problem is that YOU haven't realized it yet.

To say that Blair, with all her disabilities, will have a masters by 2007 speaks to YOUR ignorance. Blair is a NORMAL college student. And if she is going to a "top, top, top" school as you suggest, she might even find herself below the mean. It is nothing to be ashamed of. But you must remember that unlike Moorestown, colleges have real geniuses that would blow your socks off.

I don't blame you for being proud of Blair. But come on! She couldn't go to classes during high school, but she's supposed to graduate from college early? Get real! I hope no one here believes that. High school is a walk in the park compared to college.

--posted by cretin @ Monday, November 10 2003, 23:24 pm EST

Blair is a smart girl who spends and spent most of her time on academics. I do not believe she is a genius nor do I believe you scored a 1500 on the SATs unless you are adding several series of tests together. Your comments here negate any smarts of a 1500 scorer.

Blair has many AP courses to her credit. Using them, she will definitely graduate early.However, Harvard, I think, doesn't count them......I am not ignorant and BLH is certainly after this past year NOT a normal college student. She is and will do well. She will work and study to make that happen.

I repeat, BLH is not a genius; she is a studious young woman who loves to study and do well academically.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, November 10 2003, 23:33 pm EST

Do I understand this correctly? For each of eight semesters, Blair completed at least three academic courses, at the high school, and without any accomodation?

--posted by TM @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 0:11 am EST

3M--

I never referred to you as a buffoon.

--posted by TM @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 0:30 am EST

I scored above 1500 the first (and only) time I took the SAT. Call ETS if you want verification. Oh wait. You don't know who I am. Shucks.

I also have many AP credits to my name. 30 to be exact. With no special accomodations from Moorestown High School. I know people here at my top, top, top school with many more AP credits than I have. None of them are graduating early. In college, graduating early is not usually viewed as a good thing. It implies that you are only taking the bare minimum of what your school has to offer. Usually, early graduation is accompanied by a rather narrow curriculum focusing mainly on the courses in one's major. Grad schools prefer to see a person challenge oneself and get a broad education. This does not mean a curriculum with no focus. But only taking political science courses (for example) does not look good. Early graduation is a legitimate option for some people. But I wouldn't boast about it.

I'm sure Blair will do fine in college. Will she be at the top of her class? I seriously doubt it. But I am a studious young man who loves to study and do well academically. And I have made it happen. I am sure Blair will do the same.

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 0:30 am EST

TM: You never called me a buffoon, you just made comments as if I were.

No, you don't have it correct. BLH took more than three courses each year/semester at MHS at a time. I don't know for sure, but I do know that she was required/chose to take probably 5 courses (some AP and/or Honors) and thus, needed extra time.

Possibly, she has less pressure now (a guess) and is finding school "easier." Since MHS was a tough school, maybe the freshman class courses are not as threatening....again, only thinking out loud. Whatever the reason, better health, easier courses, less pressure, this semester she is doing well.

As I said, I am only thinking out loud. What I do know is that she is doing well and is happy. I certainly don't want to put the "cabash" (spelling?) on her, but it is only November.

Cretin: That is wonderful that you do so well academically. Now let that brain of yours think fairly, squarely and not Cretinize here.

Many schools have undergraduate and graduate programs tied in together., i.e. go to school for six years instead of 7 and obtain a law degree. Several schools do that with Medical school and graduate programs.

I "think" she is on a track where she will get her undergraduate degree or course completion in three years and be into her graduate degree by the end of her fourth year. I do think that is something to boast about. Obviously, many colleges like that and do that.

You study hard and be a good boy!

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 10:41 am EST

Detectors going off. Must post. A top college is easier than a public high school? I won't take issue with the fact that Blair is doing well and happy but once again we have to wonder. Could it be that she is away from a high pressure, succeed at all costs home life? Maybe she is enjoying the anonyomity of being one of many incoming freshmen and making new friends rather than being a sort of social outcast in high school. In short, it would seem that the only way a student would find less pressure in college is if they are getting away from something at home.

Seems that this is verified in Mrs. MM's posts. Blair can't just go to school, surely a remarkable feat for the disabled. No, she must fast-track and finish early or combine undergraduate and graduate studies or something. Plus her activities must be charitable in nature. Plus she must donate her $15,000 to charity. Could this be the source of her problems?

--posted by B.S. Detector @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 12:33 pm EST

Wow. College LESS stressful than high school? I find that VERY hard to believe...

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 12:36 pm EST

Is the Blair Witch going to school in Eastern Europe?

--posted by Wondering @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 12:38 pm EST

In how many semesters did Blair complete three academic courses on the MHS campus without any accomodation? The question has four elements:

1) Blair must have taken at least three academic courses during the semester,

2) Blair must have completed each of three academic courses in the during the regular course of the semester,

3) Blair must have taken each of three completed academic courses on the MHS campus during the regular course of the semester, and

4) Blair must not have received any accomodation for the three academic courses that she completed on the MHS campus during the course of the relevant semester.

I suspect the correct answer to this question is few, if any.

Given her background in Latin and her alleged intention to graduate ahead of schedule, it would be surprising if Blair was taking an introductory Latin course in college. Moreover, intermediate-level Latin courses in college focus increasingly upon literature and philosophy and less upon the basic grammar that dominates most high school Latin courses, including those at MHS. Most persons find these intermediate and advanced level college courses more demanding than their high school coursework.

A possible dramatic improvement in Blair's medical condition would be an interesting development, especially given the unusual and heightened stess of the past summer. This improvement of a disabling, chronic and apparently elusive "autoimmune" disorder, during a period of time away from family and treating physicians, would be remarkable even under more favorable circumstances.

Blair no longer has the overwhelmingly negative public attention from the plagiarism and Harvard stories, and she is laboring anonymously away at the "college of her choice." Conversely, she is working in a larger academic community rather than receiving individual home instruction, is beyond easy commuting distance, and probably has all the usual freshman issues.

Given the apparent complexity and potential ambiguity of this general situation, one may wonder who reviewed what at MHS for four years in order to develop and administer Blair's IEPs. In a broader policy sense, how much oversight of the IEP process exists in the typical school district? If there are issues with the IEP process, are "truly needy" students being disadvantaged, or conversely "less than needy" students unfairly advantaged? Some might argue that if the systems allows it, one is justified in taking it regardless of relative merit....

--posted by TM @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 14:06 pm EST

Community college studies are likely easier for Blair than her high school curriculum.

--posted by wthey @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 14:13 pm EST

lol

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 14:37 pm EST

The BEST decision the young Ms. Hornstine probably ever made was getting out of the house and away from the controlling Dad that got her into this entire mess in the first place, i.e., either forcing her or facilitating her $2.7 million lawsuit against the school district to be the "sole valedictorian" of her high school.

Next Best decision she could make would be changing her last name to one that isn't tainted with the family's lawsuit folly.

--posted by UallGetReal @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 15:49 pm EST

Your family is proud of you? I'm sure the rest of the zoo is as well, the first moron to learn to type.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 16:05 pm EST

At least my family never scalped anyone...

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 16:09 pm EST

UallGetReal--

You raise interesting points that resurface periodically. Who is primarily responsible for the ill-conceived lawsuit, including the excessive and disproportionate damages claim? Who is primarily responsible for the shameless pandering to the media in connection with the lawsuit? Who is primarily responsible for the lawsuit dragging through most of the summer, further subjecting Blair to public ridicule and humilitation as the result of her plagiarism and later rejection by Harvard?

The person responsible for these reckless acts and gross errors of judgment owes a debt to Blair, the nature of which she cannot now even fully comprehend. If I thought it would do any good, I would wish that person a large mirror in every room of the house.

--posted by TM @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 18:35 pm EST

Correction --

"humiliation"

--posted by TM @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 18:47 pm EST

while it has never been demonstrated that blair plagiarized any of her high school work, i have a suspicion that there might be evidence of wrongdoing on her part that would have come out in a court hearing. the paltry settlement fee likely indicates that the school "had something on blair". remember the school district did say that they would be reviewing the academic records in preparation for the court hearing. i wonder if part of the settlement was to keep any findings from being released.

btw - blair's plagiarism indicates a total lack of integrity and intellectual honesty. clearly very unattractive features. and while some would point to her "intelligence quotient", one's "emotional quotient" and "sociability skills" often serve one better in being a contributing member of society. an automoton who can cite facys and figures does little to add to the public at large.

--posted by wthey @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 19:44 pm EST

correction - facts and figures

--posted by wthey @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 19:45 pm EST

correction - automaton

--posted by wthey @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 19:49 pm EST

a withdrawn student, more interested in studying and rushing to finish her academic studies as quickly as possible will likely form no meaningful relationships; will surely lack empathy and understanding of the true human condition.

for someone whose behavior to date exhibits that she is self-centered and selfish...and lacks some of the basic tenets of behavior taught in kindergarten (i.e. sharing, honesty, etc.), her life ahead seems challenging. she comes across as shallow and not well-balanced. at least as she is described on this blog by a supposed friend and admirer.

blair might do well to spend some time reading - and discussing with a therapist - some of the research that has demonstrated that one's "eq" is more relevant and important than one's "iq".

time magazine's 1995 cover story on "emotional quotient" and daniel goleman's ground breaking book "emotional intelligence" would be nice starting points for her investigation.

THE EQ FACTOR
From Time Magazine
New brain research suggests that emotions, not IQ, may be the true measure of human intelligence

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:NNPWBxCzlUkJ:www.time.com/time/classroom/psych/unit5_article1.html+%22THE+EQ+FACTOR%22+%2B+%22NANCY+GIBBS%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE
by Daniel Goleman
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553375067/qid=1068598854/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-3558550-4890233?v=glance&s=books

--posted by wthey @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 20:08 pm EST

Hey wthey: Just because you have read a psychologist and NY Time writer's book, I am not sure you have the knowledge and right to judge Miss H. You call her withdrawn because she is a serious student. Withdrawn is not our Blair. She will form no meaningful relations? Says who? Will lack empathy and understanding? Please...did you take Psych 101 and now call yourself a psychologist. With your comments, I can tell for sure that you do not have an inkling who Blair Hornstine is.

I think yOur suggestion of EQ and Goleman's book as a nice starting point is a good idea.....FOR YOU!

Where do people like you dredge up such opinions and ideas????? You are so far off base that you aren't even in the stadium.

P. S. I can assure you and could put money where my mouth is that MHS had nothing on Blair that the Hornstines did not want released. Judge Wolfson WANTED this case settled. Judge Hornstine was anxious to end the grief that had extended to other family
members (even across the country) and friends. Blair and Mrs. Hornstne just wanted to pack Blair up and send her off to college just like her classmates. Plus they had a son to think about as he was entering grad school.

Because she made a mistake in her newspaper articles, your total characterization of her as self centered, selfish with a total lack of integrity and intellectual honesty is about as far off her personality and character as can be. I am sure I cannot convince you. You will argue back. No problem, though because anyone who knows her will laugh at your characterization. You are looking for an excuse for her rise and fall. Don't bother. Her fall is a mere interlude to her future. It is more like being publically dumped by her boyfriend for her girlfriend before the big dance. She will( and probably has) overcome this minute scrapping of her knee and is/has healed.

So take your grade school psychology and thoughts and put them where they belong...in the recycle bin. You are so far off.

--posted by Mrs. M.M. @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 22:49 pm EST

Although I would consider you worthy of losing your scalp, cretin, to be honest and fair, I'll not take from the Western Plains Native Nations the myth of scalping. My people have never scalped anyone either... My people were farmers, and peacemakers, and that's what they were. Noble people displaced in the name of "nationhood" regardless that the nation they destroyed existed for 700 years before they ever showed up here.

Your family may not have scalped anyone, I don't know, but I do know that my family never did. It's not what we did. You should really look up tribal history before you chose to accuse my people of things your people are guilty of in spades. Maybe not scalping, but certainly the rest, cretin, after all, we were here first... you, and those like you are, in my opinon, decendents of invaders. Yet my people have learned to live with you... maybe you should try the same thing.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, November 11 2003, 23:31 pm EST

I'm the descendent of an invader? OK. Well, so are you. Your people had no claim to this country when they came here. It was pristine. And they took it over. You may have been here before us, but you were not the first here. Don't kid yourself.

And if you think that all was peaceful during the Indian occupation, you should read YOUR history. Tribes fought each other. People were slain. All before the white man came and "ruined" everything. It is safe to say that you guys are a heck of a lot better off now than you were 1000 years ago.

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 1:41 am EST

I commented at the time that a detailed timeline, together with a basic understanding of negotiating strategy, might provide some insight into the specific settlement positions of interested persons in the lawsuit. Based upon that information, one might reasonably infer that that Judge Hornstine was a principal impediment to the prompt and equitable settlement of Blair's lawsuit, just as he was the architect of its initial structure and prosecution.

I offer three general circumstnaces in support of this argument:

The material terms and conditions of the eventual settlement were in the public domain, without comment by Blair or her representatives, for almost two weeks before the adjourned settlement conference with the Magistrate Judge. Given the modest amount of the reported settlement figure, and its accuracy, this suggests the defendants made a firm, bottom-line offer to Blair in early August.

3M argued previously that the settlement was delayed because Blair could not be reached for her decision on the offer. This is a dubious premise in and of itself, but especially given the alleged desire of Blair and her father to conclude the highly publicized lawsuit quickly and later revelations that Blair may have been taking a course at relatively nearby Dickinson College. Given Judge Hornstine's presumably determinative role in the design of the lawsuit, It seems far more likely that Ed Jacobs was struggling to convince the judge that Blair should accept the modest offer before full-blown discovery began or and/or that the judge should release a potential tort claim against the school district superintendent. I suggest Jacobs was successful on the former and a failure on the latter, a minor inconvenience to the defendants (and their carrier) in light of the specious nature of the potential tort claim.

Relying upon alleged insider information "from the horse's mouth," 3M was then posturing that the settlement would be in the range of $500,000.00, eight times more than published accounts and community "rumors" suggested. Despte repeated promises, 3M never explained the bases of this grossly inaccurate information. This suggests 3M has little, if any personal knowledge or understanding of the settlement negotiations or the true motivations of the interested parties.

BTW, it is uncertain whether the defendants "had anything" on Blair in connection with her coursework. However, it is certain that the nature and extent of Blair's medical condition would have been at issue in the lawsuit had it not settled. That issue may have proven interesting if it is correct that Blair does not receive any accomodation from her undergraduate school.

--posted by TM @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 2:10 am EST

"There is no doubt that she plagiarized articles in the Courier Post newspaper, but she did NOT plagiarize with respect to her school papers or university apps. Therefore, many schools called it "much ado about nothing." Plagiarism had no bearing on any academics and thus, many, many schools blew it off. I don't want to hear your opinion on this. It is fact. So, your opinion is not carrying weight."

Nearly all universities take extra-curricular activities into account. I know for a fact that Harvard does. Since plagiarism was one of Blair's extra-curricular activities, I doubt that ANY schools blew it off. Colleges take cheating VERY seriously.

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 4:24 am EST

in mrs mm's world what goes on in one's "real life" (i.e. outside of school) doesn't count. she would prefer that others overlook blair's dishonesty, cheating/plagiarism, selfishness and litigious behavior...and what many suspect was her malingering.

others can not overlook these deficiencies. the courier post couldn't stand behind their student journalist. harvard rescinded its offer of admission for the very fact that blair broke a basic tenet set for incoming stuents. the student body at blair's high school found the affair distasteful...as did the public at large. some may have expressed their distaste and disgust in a poor fashion, but their unseemingly behavior does not erase the true sentiment most have felt. furthermore, no individuals or organizations that stand behind the rights of the disabled offered any support to blair's misguided cause in her legal claim of discrimination against the school.

to most others who live in the world outside of mrs mm.'s fantasy, blair's behavior and actions are considered liabilities and not assets when asessing her overall character. it is easy for us to compare her to others with similar academic achievements - who exhibit more positive qualities and true motivations in all that they do. to me blair rings "false".

--posted by wthey @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 8:27 am EST

The difference is simple, there were no hommogeneous people here when my people crossed the land bridge that is not the Bering Straight. We didn't uproot local folks and slaughter them because we considered them "savages". We didn't ignore a civilization that predates some of Europes. We didn't just take. Figure it out.

As for being better off, well, if you think life on a reservation, (Nation), is a bed of Roses, you do have a screw loose. Most of my people, and the other tribes, are relegated to scrub land that has no value other than what we can make of it. Hence things like Casinos. Now, of course, the Europeans are trying to get that changed so that they, not the Nations, can run the casinos and rake in the bucks. Typical after the fact knee jerk reactions.

Certainly many tribes warred with one another, however, my people were largely considered peaceful after the joining of the five major tibes, and that was 100 years before the Europeans ever got on a boat.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 9:22 am EST

I wonder if TM and wthey sit up all night posturing as to what could have, should have and "they" think was done. It is amazing to me th at you have so much time on your hands to come up with such rationalizations that are are totally untrue.

And to TM: Blair was thousands of miles away on vacation and could not sign the papers, not at Dickinson at that time you suggest she sign the papers. The half a million was told to me by a legal person (for want of giving too much away) involved in the case, who I agree either told me a fib or was involved in wishful thinking. And whatever you believe, the only way I could get any closer to the situation was for me to live in the H. home full time.

General circumstances are general circumstances. No different than the same car owned by two different people getting different mileage....could be the engine or how it is driven....Your offer of general circumstances that support your theory tell me that you aren't correct and you have nothing better to do with your time than make up theories. I offer fact, despite you negating it. My fact is supported by the whereabouts of Miss H, the letters of acceptance she has received to attend other prestigious schools now, in January or in September. My fact is supported by my "being" there, knowing what was going on. My opinion is supported by knowing Blair and her entire family. My fact is true because I am not sitting up al night or spending my days TRYING to figure out how or why this situation happened. I know. My fact is true (with the exception of the $500,000) because I am............

Whey: You are not just worth commenting, as you WANT to see it YOUR way, not the REAL way. REMOVE that chip!

Hi S. D-S: I think that Cretin and a few others here only want to be argumentatiave and have nothing better to do than tempt you about your people and me about the Hornstines.

Yes, thank you. Blair is doing great. I had dinner with Lou last week. I speak to Linda all tbe time also. I spoke to Blair and have received e from her. Her Father has recently visited with her (Linda was not well) and reports the same.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 10:56 am EST

"Blair was thousands of miles away on vacation and could not sign the papers" ... i guess at the time of the settlement blair was beyond the reach of fed ex, dhl and facsimile machines. i hope she wasn't someplace that could have compromised her tenuous immune system.

--posted by wthey @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 12:46 pm EST

Your sarcasm is a riot. What was the rush? Why did she have to have it FedExed, etc. Do you think the $15,000 had to be in her hands quicker? When you are on a peaceful and restful vacation, maybe you want to leave the grief at home. Your looking for something to complain about is further proof to me that you just want to complain. How is your arthritis? YOU bother my tenuous system!

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 13:03 pm EST

VACATION: "
1 : a respite or a time of respite from something : INTERMISSION
2 a : a scheduled period during which activity (as of a court or school) is suspended b : a period of exemption from work granted to an employee for rest and relaxation
3 : a period spent away from home or business in travel or recreation
4 : an act or an instance of vacating "

--posted by For Wthey @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 13:05 pm EST

That someone would actually WILLINGLY sit down and break bread with Dad Hornstine, the man who clearly was the "mastermind" behind the lawsuit fiasco (GRIEF) is pretty amazing. The man's ego and arrogance led directly to the heartache and ridicule his own child continues to face. Instead of being able to publicly celebrate the bright young woman's college freshman year accomplishments, her whereabouts must be cloaked in secrecy for her own security. Does that sound like Dad Hornstine deserves any 'Father of the Year' award? Hopefully, she can one day enjoy a happy, INDEPENDENT life. All good parents want that for their children. Key phrase = Good parents.

--posted by UallGetReal @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 13:26 pm EST

Again,, I would bet...that if YOU were given the opportunity to dine with the Hornstines, you would jump at the chance. Lou Hornstine may not be the Father of the Year (although I believe he won that award several years ago from some organizastion because of his coaching and other parenting undertakings) in your book, but he is a wonderful Father, although at times possibly over zealous, as very many Moorestown parents are. When it comes to this situation, you do not and will not understand how terrific he has been. Judging him from some internet info or because he is a Judge or because he wanted the best for his family is not allowing you to develop the real person. You are so wrong on believing he is not a "good parent."

It further amazes me that you do not consider Kenny Mirkin's Mother an arrogant egomaniac as she started this entire mess because her sonny was not going to be the Valedictorian. Amazes me how some think! There is not a more arrogant person in the world than Mona Shangold...and her ex husband, well, I only know him by reputation. Oh she is a wonderful parent; her ex husband is a nationally known author, she is also and their boy is in Harvard. That makes them good parents? Please don't have any children. You sould like a simpleton!!

I wonder who would dine with you...even if you picked up the check.

--posted by Mrs. M M. @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 14:07 pm EST

I don't know how anyone can say that Kenny's mother is any worse than Blair's father.

"It further amazes me that you do not consider Kenny Mirkin's Mother an arrogant egomaniac as she started this entire mess because her sonny was not going to be the Valedictorian."

Uhhh, where have you been!?!?!? Blair et al. SUED THE SCHOOL so she could be sole valedictorian. And then she didn't even go to her graduation! What was the point of suing if she was just going to give up the title?

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 14:57 pm EST

to TM's point:

"...releases had already been exchanged and...the terms--$15,000 for Hornstine, $45,000 for her attorneys--had already been decided [by the first week of August]." http://www.theweeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/960sfcqh.asp .

the settlement was then announced a couple of weeks later on August 19th.

--posted by wthey @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 15:52 pm EST

"The settlement has been in the works since the first week of August, when a source approached THE DAILY STANDARD claiming that releases had already been exchanged and that the terms--$15,000 for Hornstine, $45,000 for her attorneys--had already been decided. When contacted and asked for confirmation, the township's lawyer, John Comegno, denied the source's claim and called the numbers "absurd." '

Releases may have been exchanged, but they definitely were not signed during the first week of August. They were signed closer to the 19th. Comegno denied, also at that time that the settlement was complete.

YOU ARE DESPERATE TO MAKE UP YOU OWN STORY. And since when is Jonathan Last the official spokesman? He was approached? He was doing the fishing and came upon some bait. He attempted to hook Comegno who denied the fact. He called the Hornstines and received a hang up.

I repeat: Releases may have been exchanged, but signatures were not put to paper that week. Stop making a mountain out of a molehill.

Find a new story to spin.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 16:33 pm EST

Cretin: How can I say that Mona is worse than Louis? Because Mona cried to the school and began throwing these stones. Blair was already in her IEP program and set to be Valedictorian. The school had four years to "investigate" any irregularities, if they had thought there were any....then along comes Mona carrying a tissue and tears. She was no better than those Fathers who get out there at their kids' soccer games and get into fights over their kids games. Mona wasn's allowing Kenny to be #2 despite the rules of the school without a fight and some tears.

So yes, she was worse..a bully...a troublemaker.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 16:39 pm EST

mrs mm - you are so easy to bait. bwah - ha - ha.

--posted by whthey @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 16:43 pm EST

Whether #2's mom complained is not the issue. The issue is that Ms. Hornstine's Dad - a JUDGE - who KNEW exactly how these lawsuits can take on a life of their own - made a conscious, deliberate decision to SUE the school district for $2.7 million. Was that decision supposed to make the family POPULAR in town?

His "overzealous" nature made his own child the focus of public disdain and ridicule. Now she is in hiding rather than being celebrated in her freshman year of college.

Was it worth it? Have any of these so called family friends ever actually asked the young woman if ANY of this was worth it....... the missing graduation, vandalizing of her home, the rejection from Harvard?

Again, the father made be well educated and a legal Big Shot (locally that is), but he sure is one lousy parent. Best advice to the girl would be to stay far away from dear old Dad.

--posted by UallGetReal @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 16:58 pm EST

Again, you all like to bait me; I like being the fish with the answers to the minnows scrounging around.

You are soooo wrong. Blair isn't hiding. She just doesn't want any more hate letters from you, tv producers calling, etc. Her friends and familay are in touch with her. She even has a girlfriend or two she knew before college with her. She just doesn't want celebrity. Her Father is anything but a lousy parent or lawyer.

Keep baiting. Keep fishing. I am the big fish with the big knowledge.

And I raise you one ha ha

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 17:32 pm EST

I suppose I unintentionally opened up Pandora's box with the date issue....

Where was Blair in August, Dickinson were the summer course(s) she was allegedly taking were still in session or "thousands of miles away" on vacation? BTW, I continue to be impressed by Blair's activity level....

Read the Last article carefully. If releases were sent, but not signed in early August, what was the hold-up until August 19 when the court supposedly wanted the case settled and a conference had been long-scheduled for August 13? If Blair was unexpectedly "unavailable" on vacation thousands of miles away, what does this say about the alleged desire to settle the case quickly to avoid the pain the lawsuit was causing her family and friends accross the country? If she was so totally unavailable, why was the conference on August 13 adjourned on such short notice? Why was 3M predicting that a settlement before the 13th is she knew or should have know Blair was thousands of miles away and totally unreachable? If the parties had reached an agreement in principal and were only waiting for Blair's signature on a form release, why would the defense attorney give the quote attributed to him in the Last article, why not either be unavailable or decline to comment?

--posted by TM @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 17:51 pm EST

sorry about the many typos in the last comment....

--posted by TM @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 17:52 pm EST

mrs mm - who has so often professed to know details of the situation - continues to contradict her many previous statements. further evidence that she is likely just an internet troll. tm - you again point out mrs mm's previous - and erroneous claims - of a settlement being announced before aug 13...her claim that it would be $500,000. we can't forget mrs mm contention that the hornstine's would be fling suit against harvard for what she claimed would be a case of "invasion of privacy". we're still waiting. we can catalog so many more mistakes, falsehoods and contrary statements that this supposed "insider" has made over the past many months. hence the reason to completely discount anything she says. it's actually quite fun and entertaining to play with this rudderless fish.

--posted by wthey @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 18:26 pm EST

prediction: since mrs mm can not counter with facts, she will continue to resort with throwing personal insults against me and others who post her. just watch. her responses are so predictable.

--posted by wthey @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 18:29 pm EST

correction: who post here

--posted by wthey @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 18:30 pm EST

correction: filing suit

--posted by wthey @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 18:40 pm EST

A few previous quotations from 3M:

"...put your money on a settlement prior to August 13, more like within the next week or so." --July 21.

"This case will be settled very soon. Unless something remote comes up to stall the settlement, the case will be solved as early as this week but before August 13." --July 21.

"...settlement papers not signed." --August 7.

"...[Blair] has been away all summer at school." --August 8.

"...the settlement will be $500,000. My info is that the settlement has not been COMPLETED." --August 8 (emphasis mine).

I would like to see someone take a shot at trying to reconcile these quotations with 3M's more recent comments.

--posted by TM @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 18:44 pm EST

Difficult day today, so please excuse the hyperactivity. If Blair was going on a vacation thousands of miles away, and would be totally out of communication with her family and attorneys before she could sign the settlement papers (let's all close our eyes and pretend a minute), wouldn't it be prudent to execute a limited power of attorney to execute the settlement papers, the terms and conditions of which she presumably knew before she left? Why wouldn't Judge Hornstine or Blair's attorneys suggest such a document. especially given the perceived exigencies of the situation? Regardless of the particular circumstances, the sudden adjournment of the long-scheduled conference, given the expectation of an impending settlement, leads me to believe there was a late develoment. In light of the modest amount of the settlement, an. d Blair's supposed unavailability, I infer there was an unforeseen development unrelated to the resolution of Blair's sole remaining claim. I suggest the defendants' insurance carrier was trying to get Blair's father to release any tort claim against the school district superintendent, for the same consideration that "settled" Blair's claim, in order to close out any other potential civil actions, however remote.for some

--posted by TM @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 19:01 pm EST

This is one of the weirdest web pages I've ever seen. Frankly, I think you're all nuts.

Good to see I apparently misinterpreted MMM's Sept. 22 post that seemed to confirm BH was at Trinity College, though.

--posted by Pigeonrat @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 20:13 pm EST

pigeonrat - this indeed is a strange blog ... we've dropped into the rabbit hole ... the inmates have stormed the asylum ... truth is fiction; fiction truth ... pass the bong; drop a tab.

--posted by wthey @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 21:57 pm EST

TM: Why? Why? Why? Why is Last's article the apostle? Why didn't Blair sign before vacation when she was at Dickinson? Why? Why? Why?

I don't remember a sudden adjourment of the long-scheduled conference. I do remember it didn't take place, however, I don't remember it being "sudden" unless that was the way it was perceived by the Press, etc.

Your suggestion that the insurance carrier was involved is quite true, however, the reason they held it up in order to release the super was "possibly" only part of the reason.

Are you sure that the other potential civil actions are not permitted to happen? What suprised EVEN YOU about the finality of the signed documents????No blame? Open items?

TM: I thought possibly you were a Harvard Law student. I have since changed my mind since you have so much time for your hyperboles.

Thanks All for now making this the DOMMM site. I appreciate your time and antics.

Hey Pigeonrat: One thing I am not is nuts. I can't speak for the others, but I tend to agree with you due to the constant flurry of new ideas streaming from old news. Me..I am just supporting my , Blair and the TRUTH.

I did not quite understand your misinterpretaion of my 9-22 post. Are you telling me that you believe that Miss H. is at Trinity?

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, November 12 2003, 22:48 pm EST

I appreciate any reasoned interpretation of the circumstances of the settlement or any "educated guess" where Blair is attending college. IMO, there is more that may be learned and understood about both issues.

--posted by TM @ Thursday, November 13 2003, 1:35 am EST

She's at Duke.

--posted by in the know @ Thursday, November 13 2003, 11:58 am EST

http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/7/messages/348.html.

--posted by TM @ Friday, November 14 2003, 6:44 am EST

how wise is it for blair - who required special accomodations for her supposed compromised immune system during high school - to take an accelerated path through her undergraduate studies? how is it possible? either mrs mm contention of blair's path is false - or, blair's "disability" was a fraud.

--posted by wthey @ Friday, November 14 2003, 8:38 am EST

if blair is at duke, it might make for an interesting story for one of the research triangle newspapers, such as the herald sun (http://www.herald-sun.com/) or the news& observer (http://www.newsobserver.com/), let alone the campus paper - the chronicle (http://www.chronicle.duke.edu/).

--posted by wthey @ Friday, November 14 2003, 8:51 am EST

If Blair is indeed at Duke, I suspect she is there under a pseudonym. An educated guess - how about using her mother's maiden name as her last name?

--posted by interestingiftrue @ Friday, November 14 2003, 17:32 pm EST

http://www.judges.org/njcnews/news_articles/Story.2003-09-15.5656

--posted by TM @ Friday, November 14 2003, 18:27 pm EST

Judge H. resigned from the National Judicial College and now belongs to an offshot of same. He recently
taught in Hollywood, Florida to a group of Judges.

BLH is in college under her own name.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Friday, November 14 2003, 21:54 pm EST

Wthey: You still want the girl subjected to the masses and press. Can't she have any privacy? How would you like living in a glass bowl?

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Friday, November 14 2003, 21:56 pm EST

imho - blair sacrificed any privacy by engaging in such outrageous behavior: claims of a disability to gain advantage over others; a failed attempt to use the legal system in a specious fashion; intellectual dishonesty by claiming words and thoughts of others as her own; no contrition or owning up to ethically questionable behavior. she made herself a target. her actions placed her subject to public scrutiny.

i have no qualms about following her current path in life. her story has not yet been told "in toto". she started this entire affair.

if blair is indeed at duke ... or for that matter some place else ... i hope some one investigates to see if she continues her despicable behavior. i have no sympathy for her - or, her father - who i strongly suspect is responsible for much of the strategy to gain unfair advantage over others. i actually believe that she "gamed the system" in moorestown by claiming a "fake" disability. i personally believe that some of her achievements need to be called into question. her serial plagiarism indicates a lack of moral and ethical foundation. i have no problem with anyone investigating her current affairs. life isn't fair. if you attempt to "stack the deck" and get caught ... you should face the consequences.

and mrs mm ... go ahead and throw insult at me. call me names ... disparage my character. none of it has any effect. only facts that can be objectivellt substantiated can counter any of the postings above.

--posted by wthey @ Friday, November 14 2003, 22:23 pm EST

correction: objectively

--posted by wthey @ Friday, November 14 2003, 22:26 pm EST

mrs mm - assuming you really do know the hornstines ... do you deny that blair is at duke?

--posted by wthey @ Friday, November 14 2003, 22:31 pm EST

You are a sicky if you think she should be followed. You are worse than the people who stalk movie stars, etc. Actually besides being a sicky, you make me sick for your thoughts. She has not falsely claimed an illness and won her legal case (not financial). Her real only negative were the articles in the Courier Post. For you to suggest that she should be followed and accounts done of her, makes me want to throw up...all over you. You area the sickest individual I have encountered here. When you live in a fish bowl and have no skeletons in your closet (whether it's something you lied to your parents about, smoking joints, illegal drinking, cheating somewhere, sometime, somehow), maybe you will then have a right to chastise. In the meantime, I repeat YOU ARE SICK AND MAKE ME SICKER.

--posted by Mrs. M.M. @ Friday, November 14 2003, 22:32 pm EST

Whey: YOu are the last person I would answer that question for. I wouldn't tell you what size shoe she wears.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Friday, November 14 2003, 22:33 pm EST

blair never did "win" her case. she won a TRO. the settlement prevented a true finding of fact or law. it will be only a matter of time whether it is established that she is at duke. friends in durham - and at the chronicle are looking into the situation - as we speak (or, is that type?).

--posted by wthey @ Friday, November 14 2003, 22:37 pm EST

btw way .. mrs mm ... throw any and all insults at me ... disparage me ... my parents ... my ancestors ... it has no impact ... no effect ... we only seek truth here ... and you have so often been shown to be wrong, to be one to contradict yourself.

--posted by wthey @ Friday, November 14 2003, 22:40 pm EST

mrs mm ... your recent silence after the posting by "in the know" indicating that blair is at duke ... and tm's insightful reference to the "pregnant pause" ... and your emotional (bordering on violent) reaction to my recent posts ... leads me to belive that you are indeed confirming that blair is at duke. it's time for my friends at the chronicle to redouble their efforts to find out if blair hornstine is indeed on their campuss in durham, nc.

--posted by wthey @ Friday, November 14 2003, 22:45 pm EST

correction: campus

--posted by wthey @ Friday, November 14 2003, 22:46 pm EST

we'll also see if the investigative reporters at the herald-sun and the news observer will pursue the leads sent to them today! ;)

--posted by wthey @ Friday, November 14 2003, 22:47 pm EST

Duke's directory service yielded three Blairs that might be the right age - Goldstein, Josephs, and Kincaid. Of course, if she's there under her real name, it could also be suppressed so it wouldn't show up in the electronic directory.

--posted by Ph @ Friday, November 14 2003, 22:54 pm EST

Mrs. M. M.: Place your bet. Are you sure of the hand you hold right now? Maybe you should pass.

--posted by hereinnc @ Friday, November 14 2003, 22:59 pm EST

correction: leads me to believe

--posted by wthey @ Friday, November 14 2003, 23:00 pm EST

wthey,

Here are some facts for you.

She is entitled to privacy, just as you or anyone else is.

Regardless of your opinion, since the court case is finished, her entitlement to privacy is protected, as is yours.

Regardless of your opinion of her disability, it is, none the less, only your opinion, and it does not entitle you to attempt to locate, or "expose" her in her current location. To do so, in many states, is tantamount to stalking.

Denial, being unapologetic, or even being an arrogant buffoon does not fly in the face of law, spirit or letter, and attempting to call attention to Blair in any environment, particularly a school setting, may entitle her to consider, and or take, punitive legal action against you. Just as you are making an effort to locate her, an effort can be made to locate you.

What you believe has no legal basis, nor do you have an ethical, moral, or overwhelming need to know where she is, how she is doing, or if she is continuing to plagiarize. Making light of your actions is either a show of misplaced bravado, or simple ignorance on your part.

As to her actions, when you place the same emphisis on others who are in the public domain, who have plagiarized, and make as concerted an effort to locate and confront them, you may be entitled to the argument that you are only looking to correct some wrong. As long as you ignore others guilty of the same actions, you are proving, prima facia, that your intent is less than honorable, and therefore, actionable.

Were I you, I would rethink my actions.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Friday, November 14 2003, 23:43 pm EST

3M--

"For [wthey] to suggest that [Blair] should be followed and accounts done of her, makes me want to throw up...." Where was that sentiment when the Philadelphia Daily News ran a full page photograph of Ed Jacobs and Blair, too disabled to go to school, outside the U.S. District Court in Camden on the day she filed the lawsuit? The Philadelphia media does not loiter in front of New Jersey courthouses looking for newsworthy stories. Ed Jacobs does not walk a complaint into a courthouse more than fifty miles from his office without an ulterior motive. Clients do not accompany Ed Jacobs to file a complaint on the other side of the state unless they know there is a pre-arranged media presence.

Blair is eating the fruit of the poisonous tree planted and nurtured by her father. The fact she does so knowingly makes it difficult to view her as an innocent, especially given her own actions. If neither Blair nor her father appear troubled by this situation, how can the public empathize with Blair and why should they sympathize with her?

Having undermined your own credibilty, you cannot be an effective advocate for Blair. You are now impaled upon the horns of a dilema that you created, unable to publish the "truth" you promised to others and incapable of protecting the feigned privacy interests of someone you consider a victim of circumstance. The fact that you do not recognize this dilema, much less try to resolve it, regretably relegates you to the staus of a comedic foil to others.

It doesn't matter what you know if you can't or won't communicate it in a creditable manner. Even at this late date, most readers would welcome your sincere, factual and material comments. IMO, most readers would like to recall you as making a strong, positive contribution to the blog.

--posted by TM @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 0:24 am EST

To be honest, I've been idly curious about where she ended up going, but I'm not especially interested in seeing anything done to her. It's similar to the way I'm eager to see how a mystery novel ends. To be honest, I've wondered if the attempts at "secrecy" (especially 3M's posts) have just fanned the flames. In fact, it seems like there's a possibility that 3M is a clever troll - some of the posts have been inaccurate or inconsistent and this "I know, but I'm not going to tell YOU" approach hardly discourages curiousity. In fact, 3M's recent posts seem like exactly the kind of thing that would egg wthey on.

--posted by Ph @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 3:14 am EST

Ph--

You are correct, of course.

Since this distateful mess hit the public eye eight months ago, I have not heard anyone in the community wish ill toward Blair or her family. The usual reaction, even in the early days of the lawsuit, was a pained facial expression and a general statement of regret that it had all come to this unfortunate end. The general public doesn't remember Blair and those in the community who don't already know where she is going to school are only mildly curious.

Who now questions why the community, having quietly held its collective nose for years, lined up solidly behind the school district administration when Blair filed what initially appeared to be a straight-forward lawsuit alleging disability discrimination? How many want this traveling road show of a family in their own community?

Like most readers, I am on occasion curious who 3M is and why she posts on this blog. While undeniably zealous, would anyone want her as an advocate? If you were Lou or Blair, and 3M was really a family friend, wouldn't you have asked her to stop posting a long time ago? IMO, the fact she is still here, sprouting the same party-line gossip, says something about her and the Hornstine family.

--posted by TM @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 6:55 am EST

Wthey and Inthe know: Miss BLH is not matriculating or studying at Duke this semester, so call off your dogs. Actually, keep calling on your dogs so maybe if somesome actually discovers where she is studying, your dogs people will be tired of listening to you and give up your stalking.

So...Intheknow, you donotknow.

And S-D-S, you have hit it on the nail again..

I will not further comment on any of your guesses.

--posted by Mrs. M.M. @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 10:44 am EST

I just want to reprint S.D-S. paragraph above. If you think Judge H has so much influence and power, I am sure that he can make situations in this paragraph come true or others with more power can:

"Denial, being unapologetic, or even being an arrogant buffoon does not fly in the face of law, spirit or letter, and attempting to call attention to Blair in any environment, particularly a school setting, may entitle her to consider, and or take, punitive legal action against you. Just as you are making an effort to locate her, an effort can be made to locate you. "

/////whey: take a powder

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 10:48 am EST

TM: all it says is that I am one of her biggest supporters and keep an eye on what is being said.

--posted by Mrs. M> M. @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 10:50 am EST

Your statement may imply more than you believe, but it is not my place to advise you.

--posted by TM @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 11:13 am EST

hey steffe'n (aka SDS) and mrss mm ... huh? punitive legal action" bwahaha... what are you smoking?

have lou call me at: 937-427-0041 ... or he can reach me at 3782 Skyline Drive, Beavercreek, OH 45432 - or, 711 Clanora Drive, Cincinnati, Oh 45205.

--posted by wthey @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 11:24 am EST

oops ... isn't that the contact information for our esteemed commentator s-d-s?

--posted by wthey @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 11:24 am EST

love the mullet s-d-s - http://setiathome2.ssl.berkeley.edu/fcgi-bin/fcgi?cmd=view_feedback&id=21157

--posted by wthey @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 11:26 am EST

The kiddies are out; the rattles are lost. Quick! get the pacificers. Can't be bright college students.
wouldn't have all that time. worry about world peace. get an education. get a job. cry babies . who cares where b goes to school. only bored children with nothing goiong on in their lives. lechers

--posted by another alterego @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 12:43 pm EST

TM --
Exactly. If I got caught in a high-profile controversy, I wouldn't want a "supporter" like 3M making posts like these. It seems like the Hornstines, at least Lou and Blair, are well-educated but there's a certain lack of common sense. For example, lifting material from a president's speech for something that will be published in a paper is a risky thing to do. Even if Blair was "only seventeen," it's surprising that she couldn't see that. The lawsuit may have been a legitimate thing to do, but it seems like asking $2.7 million was unrealistic and quite likely to antagonize people in the community. (In fact, since disability rights advoates apparently weren't going to bat for her, it may have turned them off too.)

--posted by Ph @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 15:34 pm EST

wthey,

Here is the difference... one: the information you posted is freely available on the net because of my business, Blair's is not. I am listed in many business guides for my areas, I am listed in all of my various market yellow pages, and my face is plastered on billboards from here to Florida, and back again. I am a PUBLIC persona, I have a sucessful business, I have a public life. Don't be fooled into thinking that if you were to show up on my property after hours, set off a motion detector, and ignore the no tresspassing signs that I wouldn't put a hole right through your head. I would. I have a private life, and that is not your business. Neither is Blair's at this point. What you are advocating is stalking, and it is punishable, and should be.

You can come to any of my stores, check out the mullet some more, and stand in awe at the life I have. I don't care. While you're there, buy something, be amazed at the quality of my products, how knowlegable my employees are, get a load of my picture in the showroom holding up our latest industry awards. Gawk at the see through computers, the systems built in freezers, the way we make the impossible seem commonplace. That's my public side. A lot of folks even ask for my autograph. They don't come to my house. They don't interfere with me when I'm at a function. They took lots of pictures outside the church where I got married, they were not invited in.

By all means come to a store, don't mind the armed gaurd at the door, or the metal detector, it's to protect the average 2.4 million dollars of display merchandise in each store. Don't be offended if he wants you to empty your pockets. And don't think I'm being overly cautious, after all I have an image to protect, and a store full of goodies that most folks would kill to have. If I'm in the store, don't be afraid to speak to me, I'll be happy to speak to you. But if I'm in my car, don't expect me to pay much attention to you. If I'm cutting my grass down at the property line, don't expect me to be all happy to see you with your cameras and attitude. If you climb the fence, don't be upset that my security people know about it before you touch the ground, and don't mind the dogs, they only chew until you stop fighting. If you happen to see a bus with my face on it going by, be sure to check out the whole bus, (it's done up like a wolf, pretty cool), but don't be too mad if I don't grant you an interview. Do be cautious of approaching me at a resturaunt, I'm there to eat, not talk to you, and I have a habit of provoking morons, and then when they swing, (I always have wittnesses), I beat the shit out them for sport. Having various training really helps in that department.

In other words, mind your own, and I won't have to educate you as to what the laws and MY RIGHTS are. Likewise, leave Blair alone, so you don't have to be educated as to her rights to privacy. You may be surprised that they're not as limited as you think.

Regardless of what she did, she is no longer in the public eye. Your rights are limited, and hers are far stronger than yours in that regard. Believe it.

You do not have the upper hand.

Final note wthey, if you had published personal information, three things would have happened, one I would have to sue Adam to recover the logs, including your IP. I would have to sue your IP to determine who you are, and then I would have the local authorities prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law for such a disclosure. Then, I'd sue you straight to hell, and when I was finished, you'd spend the rest of your life paying me for your actions. Believe that, too.

I trust I've made my position perfectly clear.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 17:43 pm EST

Sorry and glad you wouldn't want me for a supporter. Glad you can wear your own. I support the good and fair, just and righteous, as in Miss BLH.

Many Disability rights activists were in the courtroom when the Judge ruled. They were there to support the cause. Please get your facts straight. You were turned off, but the several people in wheel chairs and other disabled were not. When speaking to each other, the press or others gathered in the courtroom, I never heard one of them dismayed at the $2.7. I would imagine that some of them thought $2.7 was a paltry sum.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 17:52 pm EST

Whoa, S.D-S. You never mince words. I hope you have put Wthey back in his/her hole. Would I be suprised if the threats and comments of WTHEY are and will be investigated as we speak. Some people just don't understand privacy. Even JLo and Ben get some down time. Wthey: sic your friends at Duke, the press, your dirty deeds on yourself. See if you come out smelling like a rose.

BLH did get a AP DUke award for 4 years of college, as did her brother.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 18:00 pm EST

Realistically, if someone were THAT determined to conceal his/her identity, the person could just use some sort of public computer (e.g., library, cafe with free wireless, etc). Of course, there's also no guarantee that Adam, ISPs, etc, maintain logs for very long, since there may be some space/storage issues.

Wthey's level of interest in BLH seems strange, but I'm not sure whether it's really actionable. Again, if you'd really wanted to discourage this person, I suspect that just ignoring the posts might have been more effective than responding.

--posted by Ph @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 18:03 pm EST

Stalking: "to pursue quarry or prey stealthily" is against the law in most or all states. Judicial opinions vary when cases are brought to court, as to the actual nature of the stalks. However, I don't think anyone HERE wants that type of investigation to happen to him or her. It seems to me that Wthey borderlines on stalking, so if someone wanted to investigate Wthey, they would not be off base.

But then again, Wthey seems like a caged child.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 18:16 pm EST

Mrs. M. M.: Place your bet. Are you sure of the hand you hold right now? Maybe you should pass.

--posted by hereinnc @ Friday, November 14 2003, 22:59 pm EST

I DON'T PASS. SEND YOUR MONEY TO s.d-s AS A CONTRIBUTION TO THE AMERICAN INDIANS. I ABSOLUTELY WON THE BET. PUT YOUR MONEY UP. I WILL BET $1,000 OR MORE. I WILL GIVE IT TO S.D-S. TO HOLD OR TO ADAM. WANTA TAKE ME UP ON IT????? BET NOT!

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 18:19 pm EST

Wthey, while peculiar, seems anything but stealthy.

--posted by Ph @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 18:22 pm EST

maybe not slow and secrete, but definitely deliberate and most definitely peculiar

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 18:48 pm EST

I have no idea what wthey secretes and probably don't want to know.

--posted by Ph @ Saturday, November 15 2003, 18:53 pm EST

Ph, realistically, you're correct, however, not many public systems are available when wthey posts. So it is likely that his ip is recorded correctly. Secondly, an interesting thing about webthreads and bulletin boards is that they record IP information by rote. They do that so that the owner can ban, suspend or remove various posts from a specific IP address. Most web sites are designed to verify IP information. Mine, for instance, can tell you where you've been before you came to the site. It can cull your browsing habits and it can identify your IP on subsequent visits so that you recieve the content you want. In addition to that it can tell you what operating system you're using, the speed of your system, the machine ID, your browser settings and preferences. It can also tell you your name if you've got your computer properly registered. In other words, the information is available. As for logs, Adam's service provider is required to keep logs of all IPs for at least 90 days. This is so that law enforcement authorities can track events after the fact. Service providers are required to keep IP Address logs for one year. So, if I absolutely had to have it, I could get it. There are other methods which would allow a third party to capture the IP from the individual headers when a post is made, in any event, the IP could be recovered.

Now, the point of my post was not that I could get the info, or even would, but rather that it is no more difficult to locate someone like wthey than it is to locate Blair. In fact, it's most probably easier.

As to ignoring such a person, generally, that's a good idea, but it seems that on this thread the modus operandi is to post every bit of information you can find on the thread. Additionally, so that there could be no mistake, I spoke hypothetically, in that there are various safty measures built in to my life, (and most likely Blairs), that would allow a person to protect themselves from less than honorable intentions. Frankly, it seems wthey is obsessed with locating Blair, and to me, that's a bit scary. I understand, better than most, what it's like to be stalked, and to be threatened.

It isn't always words, and more often than not it comes from left field. I have learned, Ph, that if you ignore it, it does not always go away. Thus the post. I wish it did go away, but this is not reality, and unfortunately, some people do make good on their implied threats. Blair has every reason to excercise good precautions, and with folks like wthey, a warning is never enough, and threats don't affect them. They're the ones you read about later, the John Hinkleys, and such. Blair has reason to be concerned, but by the same token, wthey needs to be aware, that he/she is not as invisible as he/she thinks.

Will it work? I doubt it. Does it matter? I hope not. In any event, what's done is done. To that end, I remain, ever vigilant.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, November 16 2003, 1:26 am EST

If this actually works, the "required" field will most likely be the field that pulls you're IP. A source code sampe of a comments box.

(

Add a comment (* required) - Guidelines for posting comments

*Name:

Email:
Display email address publicly

Web Site URL:

*Your Comment:

)

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, November 16 2003, 1:31 am EST

So you are aware, Adams Php script removes HTML, so you can't see all the other info. If you were to select View + Source Code, you could see the source code for this page... and it's comments parameters. Between the two parenthisis would be the remaining HTML which makes the box work.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, November 16 2003, 1:34 am EST

Yeah, I know a little about web scripting and http, though I've never worked at an ISP. One of our development servers got hit with a DoS attack and the logs filled up pretty quickly with junk. It would not be at all hard for a script to log IP addresses. However, if you do a "View Source" for this page, it looks like you'll see HTML (and a little javascript and XML). I'd assume that the PHP script is executing on the server side so there'd be no reason for that source to be sent to the client.

--posted by Ph @ Sunday, November 16 2003, 4:31 am EST

Nope, just the content.... which would include the source IP for the post.

Adam has mentioned that serveral times in previous posts....

So either way, it gets sent to the client...

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, November 16 2003, 9:42 am EST

Curiosity aroused about SDS's stores and billboards...have I seen and/or visited unknowingly? Please tell us retail name or what billboards to look for. Haven't seen any wolf busses but don't see that many busses anyway.

--posted by B.S. Detector @ Sunday, November 16 2003, 15:53 pm EST

BS, are you the only person who hasn't seen my website? Are you the only person who hasn't tried to find me? I mean I'm about the easiest person on this thread to locate. For a "detector" you're essentially useless. Look, see, discover.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, November 16 2003, 18:59 pm EST

SDS: In June you said "I have a beautiful wife, three homes, nice cars, and damned if I haven't been to prison yet." In 2001, however, you posted this "... I am a former Marine, and an ex-convict who served time for a violent offence..." (http://tinyurl.com/vafa). What gives? Was it your evil twin brother?

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:Q1C5UByuZscJ:www.columbineanniversary.com/boards/pictures/messages/1/1439.shtml+%22posted+by+Steffe'n+Douglas-Smi%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

--posted by Spectator @ Sunday, November 16 2003, 23:23 pm EST

Spectator, I love sound bites, but since you want to play this game, lets, shall we?

You're good at twisting the entire statement to appear sinister. The crime I was sentenced for was aggrevated felonious assault, (my record has been esponged). For the record, spectator, the person I assaulted was the person who killed my first wife and daughter while drinking. He got three days in a state without a felony DUI statute in 1982, I got 10 years for hitting him once, because of my status as a former Marine, and my history in Martial Arts.

He came to my home to celebrate, he was free to kill again, and I was finished burying my family. So I hit him. At my sentencing, the Judge called his duty the most heart rendering thing he had ever done. I have no shame about my actions, Spectator, nor will I justify your sniping by capitulating to you over your little dig. It was me, I did it, and I'd do it again under the same circumstances.

If you're looking, I'm the same S. Smith that testified before congress on DUI standards in the following years. I'm the same S. Smith that gave his money from the civil suit, all 3.9 million dollars of it to the fight to establish a DUI standard. I am the same person who campaingned relentlessly for tougher laws to protect people from going through what I did. No one should have to bury his child, and his wife on the same day. No one. Not even you.

Now, if you want to condem me, have at it, Spectator, but be aware, I have a beautiful wife, I have three homes, and I haven't been to prison. My time served was house arrest while under appeal, and my conviction was finally reduced to a time served status, then esponged in 1989. My story is correct, my words are correct, and my heart still feels the pain of that day when death visited my life, and when all that I was was changed forever.

The P.S., since the DUI standard was enacted, DUI deaths are down over 60% per year, from a high of 53,000 to last years toll of just over 13,000. So, did doing what I did put a face on DUI, yes. Did going through what I did give a face to a cause? Yes.

The P.S.S., in my case it wasn't enough. In 1987, on Christmas Day, the same individual who killed my family took his own life, and the lives of his wife, his daughter, and a family of four in a collision while driving drunk to his brother's house at 10a.m. His toll was 13 DUI offenses, 9 lives, and untold heartbreak.

Do you have children? Do you get to watch them grow up? I don't. My daughter is forever two in my heart, and mind. I will never walk her down the ailse, I will never know what she would have looked like, and I will never know the sound of her voice. You'd think after all this time, ignorance like yours, Spectator, wouldn't get to me, but it does, so let me say this in closing. While you're so busy trying to tear me down, let me say this, you'll need to look elsewhere to do it, my personal life is not going to give you what you want, because I'm very proud of who I am, what I've accomplished, and what I support. You can not change my conviction of principle, nor can you sway my steady heart. All you can do is throw stones. Apparently you've forgotten, this is the internet, the proverbial glass house.

I don't have an evil twin brother. But I know of some evil people with black hearts. Look in the mirror spectator... see what I mean?

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, November 17 2003, 0:00 am EST

So there can be no question, Spectator, I have posted the entire comment. When you post sound bites, you lie the same as if you were speaking bull with your mouth. In it's entirety:

"Aside from the fact that you are obviously twisted, I think you could make a valid point if you chose not to fill your posts with viciperous, childish and "placed for shock value" language. I DON'T NEED TO HEAR GOD'S VOICE. I feel His hand in my life. I'm not some backwoods bumpkin, I am a former Marine, and an ex-convict who served time for a violent offence, and who felt the call of God, not in prison, but from without after I was released and saw that for all of my violent youth, I was really not a violent man. I stand by my faith, and I stand by my God, and if you want to belittle yourself by calling "font" names, then you are the only person who gains anything from it, and what you gain, I would not know. I believe what I believe, and it seems to me that you also believe, for you certainly go on about how my God is so vicious. That may be, I am not God, rather I am of God, and I am not a first hand wittness to the "attrocities" you claim came at the hand of God. I know this, however, evil, I use my name, not some handle, I am proud of my heart, and of my faith, and I am humble in repose to your characterization of me, but I am not without teeth. It doesn't take much of a man to hide behind font and foul language, it takes more man than you are to stand and deliver, in spite of you, in front of you, and the world. I wish you well, whomever you are; as for me, my point, and my statements stand for themselves, I look at Columbine, and I look at this forum, and I wonder, have we forgotten that it is horror that created this site, and it is peace that will close it? I shall not contribute to the defamation of the victims of Columbine, and I shall not be blinded by the fear in your posts. Cowards are always the loudest. Martyrs are always the longest heard. Just ask Joan of Ark. You will fade, evil twin, but the victims of this horrible act will not. That is something you can count on, regardless of your religious propensity."

This said in response to an attack upon my beliefs, and in particular, my religious beliefs. And you know what, Spectator, I stand by it. Incidentially, the poster who made the attack, "evil twin" and I came to an understanding later on. Of course, had you read that far, Spectator, you would have known it. Don't tell half, or a third or a tenth of the story when the truth, as they say, is out there.

Now, are you done making this thread about me? Why don't you consider the validity of the concerns regarding the safty of people based on certain recent posts? Why not peer into that persons life, and see if he might be crazy enough to do something stupid? Why not address those things, instead of me. I will always tell the truth, spectator, even if you choose to ignore it.

Deal with it.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, November 17 2003, 0:11 am EST

One final note: My conviction was not reduced prior to espongement, my sentence was. Sometimes I get typing to fast. I can honestly say I have no conviction, and no, Spectator, I've not seen the inside of the prison walls. I will say this 24/7/365 was kind of odd, but at least it wasn't bars, I suppose I should be grateful.

Then I go to the garden of stone, and remember why. Would you be grateful?

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, November 17 2003, 0:16 am EST

The quotes I used in no way twisted your words, and I included a link to the source so anyone could read it in its full context. The two quotes seemed to contradict each other. You have now explained that serving time meant under house arrest, not in prison. Fair enough.

But now I will straight out call you a liar as that quote goes on to say "... who felt the call of God, not in prison, but from without after I was released and saw that for all of my violent youth, I was really not a violent man." Your statement implies that god called you after you were released from prison. Yet you just said "... and no, Spectator, I've not seen the inside of the prison walls."

So did you lie then or are you lying now?

--posted by Spectator @ Monday, November 17 2003, 1:32 am EST

But isn't god pretend???

--posted by cretin @ Monday, November 17 2003, 1:37 am EST

Spectator,

Get off it. Have you ever lost your wife/husband, son/daughter? That prison never ends. My technical release from house arrest is the refrerral point to that post. I did not lie then, or now. I can see where you may feel its misleading, and to be fair, you did indeed post a link to the full context, but we both know that most people will not follow that.

Regarding my youth, I was a punk, and I don't deny it. I never spent time because frankly, the authorities didn't know what to do with a Native in the city, and it was easier to just dump me back on the tribe. There are some of those folks, I'm sure, who would have summarilly executed me. I faught a lot, got into a lot of "schoolboy trouble".

As to my calling. Because I had zero exposure while on house arrest, I did not experience God until after my release. Interestingly, it was during the travels to put forward the DUI Standards that I felt His hand.

And to answer the other; no, God is not pretend, but you are.

I suggest it's time to move this along.

Agreed?

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, November 17 2003, 7:56 am EST

One note, to your statement... No, you did not twist my words, but rather than post them in their entirety, you posted a sound bite. I remember a sound bite when a President said: "I have ordered the nuclear destruction of..." prior to a speech. (Words to that effect, I'm not certain the quote is correct.)

The flap over that war funny, but it sure freaked out some people.

Most people will not look beyond the words in front of them, Spectator, and you know that. Thus, posting the link, while providing the information, did not assure that it would be read, and if it was not read, then anyone reading this thread would have to take out of context, the words you did post. That's just human nature.

Thus my response.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, November 17 2003, 7:59 am EST

One more time, with feeling! The fact remains that regardless of the the lengths of my quotes, they were not taken out of context. You imply that they were, but offer no proof. A simple reading of your entire statement shows that they were not.

You say "I can see where you may feel its misleading". Don't try shifting the context of your lie from an objective question of fact to a subjective one of feeling. I don't feel its misleading, I know it is unless you can offer proof to the contrary. Furthermore, stop using tragedy in your past to smokescreen the basic fact that you lied about how god came into your life (what a thing to lie about!). You've played the victimhood card but I see your bet and call. My mom died when I was a child, and my life became a living hell which took me decades as an adult to overcome. My full house beats your two of a kind. Now drop the past and answer the question.

Did you lie about how the creator of the universe revealed itself to you, or did you lie when blowing your own horn about your present material success compared with prognostications from authority figures in your past?

With ethics like this I'm starting to see why you defend Blair so vigorously.

--posted by Spectator @ Monday, November 17 2003, 12:40 pm EST

SDS-Haven't looked into your 'details' as I thought Blair was the point of this forum. But your stores sound interesting and I still would like to visit. Following your advice, I did visit your website but could not really discern a commercial name or brick and mortar location(s). Since you issued the invitation, please follow through with the necessary details for the non-sleuths among us.

--posted by B.S. Detector @ Monday, November 17 2003, 12:41 pm EST

Spectator, I asnwered your question, if you don't like the answer, that's your problem, not mine. Further, I didn't lie. I can see how you find it misleading, however, given that I answered your question, I would call the topic moot. I am not using any tragedy to smokescreen anything. I'm not playing poker, and if you want to, I guess you need another partner.

From my end of this, the discussion is over. If you still have questions about it you are forever doomed to spend your life with them unanswered. I hope it's not that important to you.

Note: I said NO you did not twist my words. However, if someone had not taken the time to read them all, it would be taken out of context. I did not say you took them out of context. Once more, with feeling, get a clue. Sound bites are dangerous ways to make a statement.

End of discussion.

BS, what city are you in? We wouldn't want you to have to travel hundreds of miles to the brick and mortar store near me. Ocala, Ft. Lauderdale, Cincinnati, Lexington, Lousiville, Indianapolis, Charleston, Columbus, Phoenix, Austin, and Nashville are some locations. Where are you closest too, and I'll happily provide you with an address, a location, and a phone number.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, November 17 2003, 13:22 pm EST

Once again SDS attempts to turn a blog about Blair into a blog about SDS.

Don't let him! Fight the machine!

--posted by cretin @ Monday, November 17 2003, 14:35 pm EST

Cretin,

You're so full of it that description is beyond words... I answered a question... then you showed up...

bad pennies

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, November 17 2003, 15:03 pm EST

Have there been any verifiable Blair sightings?

--posted by Wondering @ Monday, November 17 2003, 21:14 pm EST

At least I didn't kill my wife and kids...

--posted by cretin @ Monday, November 17 2003, 21:17 pm EST

Cretin, even for you, the implication there is sick. Would that you lived nearby, but for you, thankfully, you don't.

You are sick. Just simply put, sick.

Even the implication is over the line. I wouldn't wish what you've implied on my worst enemy, (right now, you're pretty close to the top of that list.)

You're a worthless pathetic fool.

Thankfully, survival of the species does not depend on you.

And I'm certain your mother would be ashamed of you, if she knew what you do, and say. Not to mention, appalled.

You win, you pathetic slime. I am finished. I won't frequent this board any longer, if Adam will let someone like you make that kind of implication, (and none of us are fool enough to not know what you were implying.), I won't be here.

You need help, son, badly. Go get it before it's too late.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, November 17 2003, 21:57 pm EST

Isn't this like the 5th time you've said you're leaving???

You are sick for committing aggrevated felonious assault.

--posted by cretin @ Monday, November 17 2003, 23:15 pm EST

Cretin, I don't care if it's the 500th time, you have no business implying that I killed my wife and family.
Frankly, the individual was lucky, he got to live to kill another couple families. I did what any father, and husband, faced with an impossible circumstance would do, I hit someone. Today, if he'd done such a thing, he'd be facing 14 years in prison, then, he got three days. So if you think I'm sick for being human, a father, a husband... oh well.

What would you have done, cretin, welcomed him with open arms?

You have finally proven what I have known all along, and that is that you have no worthwhile purpose, other than to insult, and aggrevate people. Your comments in this case are beyond low, they're simply pathetic, and for you to stand in judgement of me is unabashedly silly. You have no clue.

I hope the day never comes, cretin, when you have to face what I did that day. The difference between he and I is simple, he used a two ton car to smash my family to death, I hit him with my hand ONE time. But you have the audacity to call me sick. You're out of you're blooming mind, and you have crossed the line with this one.

You're out of your mind. I am firmly convinced that you are insane. Don't show up around me, Cretin, ever, because just as sure as God made little green apples, I wouldn't be responsible for what I'd do if you should happen to come my way.

I react to things, but what you've done is beyond amoral, it's simply sick. There are people in this world who don't deserve it's blessings, and you are one of them. You are no more fit to exist, in my opinion, than Osama Bin Laden.

You take your solace in this, cretin, you hurt me with this, up to now, you've ticked me off, but with this sick barrage, you've hurt me, reached me at the heart. I had believed in the basic decency of humanity, but you have consistantly shown that you have not a shred. You're a pathetic little loser with nothing better to do than to actually attack a person at their weakest level, their heart. You have no soul, that I believe. You have no humanity, no heart, no compassion, no decency in you.

You are worthless, cowardly, and pathetic, and most of all, you are sick beyond help. Were your life in my hands, I don't know if I could keep from crushing it out of you, and that's the truth. Thankfully, for both of us, you life is not in my hands. I pray it never is.

Enjoy your moment, cretin, because I believe fully that in the denoument, you will live up to your billing, and finally, utterly, destroy yourself in the process. On that day, I will indeed, rest easier. You're a menace to society, to yourself, and I believe, to me.

Don't come around. I will defend myself. These are my final words to you. Say what you will, but don't doubt for one second that they are true.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, November 17 2003, 23:47 pm EST

More terroristic threats...

YAWN.

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 0:48 am EST

Threat: by threatening, implying injury to person or property; use of intimidation to instill fear; to threaten

Fact: A statement of truth.

There are zero threats and many truths in my post. Heed them all. Yawn all you want, do not presume that I would not take any and all action to protect myself in the event you came here. I will, and if you provoke such an event, you will be seriously injured or killed in such an exhange. Self defense is legal in this state. The above statement is in compliance with the federal mandatory warning of injury in a provoked event. All you have to do to avoid the facts is keep yourself away from me.

I will defend myself.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 1:26 am EST

Oh I know, I lied, I said I was leaving. I said I was done with cretin. Yada yada yada. So long as all you whatever's tolorate the type of behavior he exudes, I will stand. As for him, he's worthless, pointless, and infantile.

Adam, frankly, I don't understand why you let him back after the first time you banned him. He is what he is, an idiot. He has caused more trouble on this thread than any ten "snipers" and yet you tolorate him. Patience is a virtue, but there are limits, no matter what.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 1:29 am EST

SDS is the one who threatened to push me off a cliff. He also threatened to sic his band of indigenous thugs on me. SDS is a weapon of mass destruction.

You had better not come east of the Mississippi, SDS. I know a lot of powerful people, and they would think nothing of putting you out of your misery. Self-defense is legal in this state, too. And my people answer to no one.

Watch your back. You can kill whomever you please, except for me or my family. I will fight you to the death. You have been warned!

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 1:46 am EST

I have never threatened you. You have tried to twist things in ways that are beyond belief, and some folks even fell for it.

I AM EAST OF THE MISSISSIPPI, so now what, are you gonna sick your "people who answer to no one" on me? I don't need thugs, and all the powerful people you know would laugh you into the straight jacket if they saw what you write, and say.

I am not in misery, I do not need to threaten you with third parties, you ignorant twit. I do watch my back, hence the warning. I would suggest you just shut up now, because unlike my posts which tell you exactly what will occur IF you COME to me, you post implies that you have people looking for me, (since I am not hard to find, that's a rather frightening peice of information.) I will say this, the local authorities, where I am at now are now aware of your activity with regards to your implied threats.

You are to cease and desist post haste. Failure to do so may result in criminal charges against you. Attempting to contact me at my home, place of business, or any other location I frequent will now be considered stalking by threat, deed, or action. Further efforts at intimidation by word will be ignored. Further efforts by you to reach me outside of this thread will be met with legal consequence.

I am in fear for my wellbeing, and am concerned that you are unbalanced enough to attempt some type of assault upon my business, home, or person, or that of my wife.

Accordingly, I will be applying for a "John Doe" Protective Order, to be completed when your identity is determined. At such time, I will seek a legal order to bar you from coming within 1000 feet of me, any of my business locations, my home, my family, or anywhere that we may be, jointly or seperately.

I'm not warning you, I'm telling you. I will no longer tolorate your garbage. IF YOU COME HERE,ASSAULT ME, ATTEMPT TO ASSAULT ME OR MY WIFE IN ANY WAY I WILL DEFEND MYSELF WITH LETHAL DEADLY FORCE UNTIL SUCH TIME AS YOU CEASE AND DESIST IN YOUR ASSAULT IN ACCORDANCE WITH LOCAL STATUTES.

I know you think this is a game. It's not. I am afraid you've lost it. I do fear for my life, and that of my wife, and I will take any and all action to protect myself and her from you. As certain of my personal information is available to the public, I consider it a real possibility that you may, or have, or are planning to come here. Call it whatever you want, but the best, smartest thing you can do is leave me alone, cretin. Enough is enough, and you are over the edge. People who would think nothing of putting me out of my misery... who do you think you are? Al Capone? Your people answer to no one. You really are an idiot, aren't you?

I will make it simple. IF you come to ME, and IF you attempt to do anything to cause me, my wife, my home, my property, or my business harm, I will defend myself, my family, and my property. If you choose to be that stupid, simply put, YOU will answer to me. If you don't come, then there is no problem, but I will not relax my gaurd just because you say you won't. I don't believe you. Don't be stupid. Don't come here, and don't continue to make threats that imply something that is false, misleading, and baseless. I have never implied, or said I would come to you. You have repeatedly said you would come to me. I am telling you, finally firmly, completely, if you do, I will defend myself with every tool, weapon, training, knowlege, and opportunity that I have. Period.

Stay away, cretin. Stay away.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 2:57 am EST

Adam,

Ban us both. Enough is enough. I won't tolorate his stupidity and threats.

Ban us both, and end this. Anything beyond that, will have to be dealt with by the authorities.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 3:02 am EST

SD-S,

You, sir, are a looney.

--posted by Tom D @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 9:57 am EST

Tom, at this late stage, simply put, you have no idea of what you're talking about. There is far more to this situation than what you see here. Were you in my shoes, you'd not be calling me a looney. But thanks for your imput, it does after all, prove my point about sound bites.

We're a minute society. We don't take the time to know the facts. If you knew the facts, you'd be pretty amazed at the steps this person has taken to make himself threatening to me.

Looney that.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 10:19 am EST

SDS - Any southeast location of your stores will do. The ones you mentioned plus Birmingham, Atlanta, or Knoxville. Washington DC, Austin or Tuscon also would be fine. Give me something to do with down time. Thanks.

--posted by B.S. Detector @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 11:18 am EST

Tucson

--posted by B.S. Detector @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 11:20 am EST

S-DS, cretin, and everyone else who's following this thread:

Sigh.

This page has become less about Blair Hornstine than it is the personal soapbox for certain individuals. If you care so much about expousing your beliefs and thoughts, why not consider starting a blog of your own?

http://www.blogger.com
http://www.typepad.com
http://www.wordpress.org

Because some of you can't control your own urges, I'm considering shutting down comments completely on this page. Think about the others you'll be affecting if this happens. No more insightful thoughts from TM, cambridgema, or bystander and no more blind support of the Hornstines by Mrs. MM.

Or wait, better yet! Maybe I'll restrict posting to this blog to just the two of you, SD-S and cretin. You two have infected this blog like Agent Smith infected the Matrix We can have a mano-e-mano battle royal over whose posts can inflame the other the most! The battle for control of the Blair Hornstine Project ends tonight!

Why do you want me to ban both of you from this site? Let me offer you an alternative:

*** Ban yourselves from coming to this site. ***

Can you do it? Will you do it?

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 11:49 am EST

Adam: Allowing S.D-S to discontinue his meaningful commentary here is absolutely allowing air out of the balloon on this blog.

I have been called every negative name in the book here including liar, but to allow Cretin to discredit a man with threats of harm and posting items like his has sexually transmitted diseases, is allowing this blog to resort to meaningless crap. Yes, I have called people here twits (especially Cretin) and other nonsenical names to vent my frustrations at the terrible things I hear people saying about Blair who you all know I believe in and love dearly, but to allow Cretin to disturb YOUR blog with his crap, threats, etc., and to diminish S.D-S's thoughts by those threats, etc., allows a jackass' rear end to command this blog.

If S. D-S if off and I am still here, Cretin has another person(s) to vent his crap to. So, look at the many pages of comments here. Notice that Cretin has only stirred up controversy, never once offering a real opinion, thought or fact. Cretin is full of sh** and a danger to all. BAN CRETIN!

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 15:55 pm EST

Adam: Further, with a name like Cretin....he obviously wants to be a Cretin.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 15:57 pm EST

Adam,

Instead of addressing the real issue, which is the repeated, consistant, and relentless harrassment by Cretin, of persons on this thread, and allowing threats to be posted without adhering to your own Guidelines for posting, it seems to me that you thrive on this kind of abuse. You have privately said you don't think he really means it, but noted that his comments are threatening.

I do think he means it. I take that seriously, even if you don't.

Mrs. M.M. please contact me. BS, use the contact link from my site to contact me for information.

Adam, I will step back, but not because it's the right thing to do, rather because you lack the backbone and moral fiber to do the right thing.

You encouraged him, and ignored his actions, and until this last, unforgivable statement, implying I killed my own wife and child, I have tried. If you think you did the right thing, perhaps you should consider a new line of work, something like being a garbage man, because that's what you've collected. Garbage. How sad for you.

A coward, and a fool.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 16:39 pm EST

SDS, please stop the barrage of venomous hate mail that you are filling by inbox with. I do not have a high speed connection, so it would be better for you to space your hate emails throughout the entire day.

Lot's of love,
Cretin!

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 17:03 pm EST

Cretin, unlike me, you don't have an email address that I'm aware of. The e-mails you sent to my address were turned over to authorities long ago and deleted from my system and then blocked.

I couldn't e-mail you if I wanted. However, according to my ISP, their POP server has blocked over 240 emails from you that IP, (it's the only one on my server list) since September.

My IP is Zoomtown, a division of Cincinnati Bell. Which would explain, cretin, why you get so many responses from them telling you your mail has been blocked.

I would suggest you stop sending email to me, so that you don't get it back and block your own system.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 17:08 pm EST

SDS, rather than sending me 100 hate emails in 1 hour, consider sending 4 hate emails every hour. 4x24=96, so you would only be losing out on 4 hate emails a day. But my inbox would thank you!

Yours forever,
Cretin

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 17:09 pm EST

PS, shut up.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 17:10 pm EST

SDS, I have never emailed you. I didn't even know your email address until you started sending me hate email. 100 emails in one hour! Unlike you, I don't have the luxury of high-speed internet. Give my inbox a break and space the emails throughout the day...

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 17:11 pm EST

PS, stop harrasing me!

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 17:11 pm EST

"you don't have an email address that I'm aware of."

Yet you claim to have received emails from me? If you received emails from me, then you would have been able to find my email address from them. But since I never emailed you, you must have received my email address through other means. MMM???

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, November 18 2003, 17:14 pm EST

Thank you for your participation in the Blair Hornstine Project. Much has been said and much has been learned. In the final analysis, I think we learned more about ourselves and each other than we ever did about Blair Hornstine.

--posted by Adam @ Tuesday, November 19 2003, 15:12 pm PST