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Home / Digital Journal / 2003 / The Blair Hornstine Project

Blair Hornstine Project Comments

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To read comments from previous months, check out the following links.

• June 8 to July 7
• July 11 to July 23
• July 23 to August 18
• August 19 to November 3

Today, in the Philadelphia Inqurer's web site it was announced that Harvard University rescinded Blair Horstine's admission to the class of 2007 due to her admitted plagarism. The Moorestown School District is also reviewing her school work to determine if she plagarized any of her work.

So, my fellow Romans, Blair Horstine will not be a member of the class of 2007 at Harvard!

Let all those who supported Blair cry out their hearts about this unfairness as it was caused by a person who did not use good judgment in handling this situation. Had she played her cards right, she would have avoided many of the problems she created for herself.

How could Harvard let her in when she is suing the school district for $2.7 million dollars? If she entered the campus and got a hostile reaction from her fellow students, what would have stopped her from suing Harvard for providing a hostile learning environment? No one needs trouble to enter their campus.

James K. Goodwin

--posted by goodwin @ Friday, July 11 2003, 13:47 pm EDT

Wow, this is a dramatic turn of events. You can read more about it in the Harvard Crimson:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=348498

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Friday, July 11 2003, 16:19 pm EDT

Also - read the AP article ...

Report: Valedictorian who sued is dropped from Harvard class
From The Associated Press
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/192/region/Report_Valedictorian_who_sued_:.shtml

--posted by cambridgema @ Friday, July 11 2003, 17:26 pm EDT

'According to Director of Undergraduate Admissions Marlyn McGrath Lewis ’70-’73, who declined comment on Hornstine’s case, Harvard admission is contingent on five conditions enumerated for students upon their acceptance—including one which stipulates admission will be revoked “if you engage in behavior that brings into question your honesty, maturity, or moral character.”

from The Harvard Crimson (http://www.thecrimson.com/today/article348498.html)

--posted by cambridgema @ Friday, July 11 2003, 17:29 pm EDT

"In preparation for further discussions, the Moorestown school board is investigating the integrity of Hornstine’s academic coursework, said Cyndy Wulfsberg, the board’s president. 'We need to find out absolutely everything that we can. If it means examination of her work, and if that work is there to be examined, I’m sure we’ll do it,' she said, adding that the board will also likely interview all those involved in Hornstine’s education, including her tutors and guidance counselors."

from The Harvard Crimson (http://www.thecrimson.com/today/article348498.html)

--posted by cambridgema @ Friday, July 11 2003, 17:31 pm EDT

A current Blair Hornstine thread is running at MetaFilter - http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/26931

--posted by cambridgema @ Friday, July 11 2003, 17:40 pm EDT

My guess on Harvard uninviting her:

Say in her application to Harvard, Blair listed and included under the category of other activities that she had published newspaper articles. (Didn't one win a prize)

In the Harvard application one must sign off that everything submitted is entirely the work of the applicant.

Thus she lied on her application and Harvard had no choice.

--posted by MonkeyBrains @ Friday, July 11 2003, 19:26 pm EDT

I can't help but wonder if there might have been some "lifted words" in her application to Harvard.

"Harvard spokesman Robert Mitchell said the university would not comment on any application to the school."
from: http://www.boston.com/dailynews/192/region/Report_Valedictorian_who_sued_:.shtml

--posted by cambridgema @ Friday, July 11 2003, 19:38 pm EDT

MonkeyBrains:

Yes...Blair's essay on North Korean nuclear arms (March 29, 2003) was awarded "essay of the month" by the Courier Post.

Steve LaMontagne, the senior analyst at the Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation who wrote the original words, told the Burlington County times that :..."he was startled to learn...that embattled Moorestown High School valedictorian Blair Hornstine appropriated his work without attribution in an essay she wrote for a Cherry Hill newspaper....'I remember writing that,' LaMontagne said. 'It won an award?' "

from: http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/112-06082003-103732.html

--posted by cambridgema @ Friday, July 11 2003, 19:52 pm EDT

Here's an interesting quote from Yishan Wong, the person who started the Petition to Rescind Blair's Admission to Harvard:

''I'm sure Blair will recover from this setback, learn from her mistakes, and go on to be succesful,'' said Yishan Wong, the Mountain View, Calif., engineer who has no association with Harvard but began the petition drive. ''At least she will always be able to look back and say that she was her high school valedictorian.''

This is from the Boston.com's article linked above.

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Friday, July 11 2003, 21:07 pm EDT

Another article in the Philly Inquirer:

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/6282505.htm

Includes quotes from K. Mirkin and other MHS classmates.

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Friday, July 11 2003, 21:30 pm EDT

Posting has now been reenabled for everyone.

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Friday, July 11 2003, 22:02 pm EDT

Adam, thanks for the site. I'm testing to see if any html tags work like bold, italic, links, and blockquoted textLets see what happens.

--posted by MonkeyBrains @ Friday, July 11 2003, 22:11 pm EDT

Nope, all the stuff in angle brackets was stripped out.

--posted by MonkeyBrains @ Friday, July 11 2003, 22:13 pm EDT

MonkeyBrains:

Yes, most if not all HTML tags are stripped out. You can enter URL's and they will be converted to links in the comments section.

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Friday, July 11 2003, 22:23 pm EDT

cambridgema, let me be a little clearer on the point I was trying to make. I think it was Ms. Hornstine's single minded devotion to elaborating her resume that made this a clear cut decision for Harvard. After you initially apply to Harvard, you are able to update your application to include late breaking achievements. My guess is that she made sure to include her prize winning newspaper story and thus she directly runs afoul of her signed honor statement. One strike and you are out.

If she hadn't sent that to Harvard there would be much more of a value judgment in considering her application. http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/6282505.htm says:

"Mitchell said that students accepted to the university are required to sign a list of conditions for admission. Among other reasons, admission can be revoked if a student engages in "behavior that brings into question your honesty, maturity or moral character," he said."

Since this sort of evaluation is easily questioned by a litigious family, I don't think Harvard would have just acted against the honesty of her writing in the kiddy section of a local paper. But misrepresentation in a Harvard application is much more serious.

--posted by MonkeyBrains @ Friday, July 11 2003, 22:43 pm EDT

MonkeyBrains: Yes ... I agree with you. The Admissions Committee ... along with the Review Committee likely took into consideration her original application ... and all subsequent "updates" ... and came to the conclusion that her original admission was "null and void" due to misrepresentation.

"According to Lewis, when an application comes under review, Harvard first asks a student 'to tell us in his or her own words what happened.'...'The admissions committee — composed of both representatives from the admissions office and professors—then meets to discuss the case. The decision on Hornstine followed such a meeting.'"

from: http://www.thecrimson.com/today/article348498.html

--posted by cambridgema @ Friday, July 11 2003, 23:35 pm EDT

On July 3, 2003, I said: "...Ultimately, that is entirely up to Harvard. Because their admissions standards may include the possibility of review of such actions, and which may include reconsideration of her admission, it is entirely possible that her plagiarism will result in her being rejected. If that is the case, it will be the fruit of her actions, to which there is relevance in the admissions process at Harvard..."

Harvard has spoken, and in my mind, there is no recourse for Blair. As I have said, while I believe that the paper DOES bear a measure of responsibility, Blair's actions have reaped the reward for plagiarism.

"...As I have stressed, even if that occurs, it had no bearing on her work at MHS, and was not relevant to the law suit..."

The facts of the matter(s) are actually pretty clear. Now, however, the schoolboard is indicating that it is going to go over all of her work. To me this smacks not of the schoolboard doing the right thing, but of the school board trying to find a way to discredit Blair, and perhaps avoid a settlement or judgement in matter. While it may be prudent, it still smells of someone with egg on their face trying to find a way to get it off

"...It is certainly possible that she will be denied admission to Harvard, and if she is, she will have to live with that particular price forever. Even so, it does not excuse the discrimnatory actions of the School Board, or Mr. Kadri, and it certainly does not dillute the validity of her claims in the lawsuit..."

While Harvard is not bound by the rules of MHS, it has acted in accordance to it's own rules, and very possibly, in the best interest of Ms. Hornstine. However, the revisitation by the board into Blair's work seems more like sour grapes, than a reasonable response to the situation. Harvards actions do not dilute the validity of her claimes in the lawsuit, in spite of what some would say.

"...Her future credibility is certainly at risk, and it will take a great deal of effort on her part to overcome it. Perhaps she needs to be denied admission to Harvard, I don't know, but in the end the decission will be made based on merit, and all of the available information to the admissions office of Harvard, and whatever it is, it too, will spark controversy..."

Her future credibility has taken the first of what I believe will be many hits. Regardless of what she tried to do, Blair will always be the girl who "stole" the crown. She will also always be the girl that the "common folks" loved to hate, and that a town managed to destroy, if not directly, then via the back route into her actions.

I still believe that the paper has a measure of responsibility, and I am not prepared to ignore the lack of direction that it exhibited in publishing Blairs reworked material. She did the deed, and I have never excused that, but she didn't do it alone, if you will, and I won't excuse that, either.

In the end, Blair will likely be stripped of even her Valedictory title, and she will be smeared, because that's what the town wants, and people in general, and that is sad, that we're willing to destroy what I see as an elitist, yet somehow lacking child before she has the chance to either fix what she broke, or move past what she was percieved to have done. Blair may be broken by the actions, and deeds, both of herself, and the town, but ultimately, the losers are us, because we chose not to take the high ground, and rather, stormed the castle walls of a child with less stability than most of us, and more vunerability than at least that many of us.

I wish her luck, and strength, because in the days to come her public humiliation, she will learn, will not be salved by any amount of money.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Friday, July 11 2003, 23:53 pm EDT

bravo to harvard. why?

well, if admission is contingent upon not engaging in "behavior that brings into question your honesty, maturity or moral character," i would say her actions qualify her for denial of admission on all three counts.

i just finished up at another school full of overachievers, so i can't speak firsthand regarding harvard's policies or past enforcement of them, but i applaud their decision in this case.

young people (such as myself) who attend universities (such as harvard) may eventually be called upon to be leaders in tomorrow's world. do we want leaders whose honesty, maturity, or moral character are in question?

honesty: i'm not going to attack her on the plagiarism issue, but it's there. we all have skeletons in our closet.

maturity: can't we _share_ the title of valedictorian like adults? at seventeen, one is not legally an adult, but sharing is something we are supposed to learn at a much younger age. not to mention tact and grace.

finally, moral character: i'm not sure if this fits under "moral character" or "maturity," but for someone who is so concerned with helping the impoverished, she sure wants a lot of money from a school district. most school districts have budget woes as it is.

in my home state (not sure about my home-away-from-home,) 2.5 million dollars equates to approximately one new school. (costs may have gone up recently, but it's at least half of a new, state-of-the-art educational facility.)

give me a break. i would say "act like an adult" but i know that many legal adults are also petty and selfish. "act like the leader you want to be recognized as" is more like it. "act like a valedictorian"?

just my two yen.

--mike

--posted by mike @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 1:07 am EDT

as a disclaimer to my previous posting, i was never my class valedictorian, maintained only modest grades throughout my own college career, have only rarely been exposed to the intense east coast academic culture (having been on the opposite coast for college), and do not condone nor have i ever engaged in plagiarism (though i do understand that occasionally, especially in high school, it may be done unintentionally).

sorry for the spam.

--posted by mike @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 1:22 am EDT

Suicide Attempts

Gee, S. Douglas-Smith, aren’t you gentle in your history of and extrapolation of what will happen to Blair Hornstine.

My guess is that after total rejection she will try suicide (pretend, close, or real), because it fits in with what I’ve heard of her family dynamic.

If she succeeds then I think her parents should be brought up on child abuse charges.

--posted by Concerned @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 2:48 am EDT

Now that Harvard has done the right thing in rescinding their offer of admission, and the school board is looking through Ms Hornstine's schoolwork for evidence of plagiarism, I wonder if the sponsors of her scholarships will consider stripping those away, too. I sincerely hope they will at least make sure she rightfully earned them.

--posted by Tom @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 5:03 am EDT

How in the world did Blair find all the time for her volunteer actiitities, her trip to China and the other accomplishments that won her a Discover Scholarship, if she didn't have the energy to leave her home to go to her local higfh school? And how would this poor fragile disabled child stand the rigors of going to physical classes at Harvard? Perhaps Thomas Edison State College would be a better choice for her. To quote her accetance interview for the Discover scholarship: "I want to do something with law......poverty lawyer". My kids have gotten leapfrogged by students taking level two classes while they have taken honors and AP, but hey, they are happy, succesful, well thought of and will excell at the colleges they've chosen, without crippling the local school board. Blair's Superior Court Dad, as well as the other child's mother, have taught their children that the one who whines the loudest wins.
Poor Lesson, parents.

--posted by G. Byrnes @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 8:21 am EDT

Okay ... time for the attorneys to shut up. Let the therapists do their work now.

"Apparently the sentiment on [Harvard's] campus is very negative, and somebody decided to give a lot more weight than I think they ought to have given to this," [Hornstine's attorney Edwin J. ] Jacobs said. "I do not think there should have been a concern at all at Harvard over her admission based upon the publication of essays. I'm disappointed that so much attention was paid to something that has nothing to do with her qualifications, achievement or intelligence," said Jacobs. "And I'm very much distressed that someone [at Harvard] chose to make it public." (http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/6287557.htm)

--posted by cambridgema @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 9:38 am EDT

In some respects, this case recalls the woman who was admitted to Harvard circa 1995 and had her admission withdrawn beause she was previously convcted of a felony (manslaughter, I believe) for beating her abusive mother (? stepmother) with a lamp. Despite the fact she did time, was counselled and recovered sufficient enough to achieve academically and to get into Harvard, she was let go because of her history and because of incomplete disclosure of same during the application process.

Despite the announced acceptance withdrawl, it is quite possible that this series of events is not over and that with the assitance her assembled legal team, a mechanism will be devised to allow her to matriculate.

--posted by Ivy League Fru Fru @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 12:01 pm EDT

In some respects, this case recalls the woman who was admitted to Harvard circa 1995 and had her admission withdrawn beause she was previously convcted of a felony (manslaughter, I believe) for beating her abusive mother (? stepmother) with a lamp. Despite the fact she did time, was counselled and recovered sufficient enough to achieve academically and to get into Harvard, she was let go because of her history and because of incomplete disclosure of same during the application process.

Despite the announced acceptance withdrawl, it is quite possible that this series of events is not over and that with the assitance her assembled legal team, a mechanism will be devised to allow her to matriculate.

--posted by Ivy League Fru Fru @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 12:02 pm EDT

In some respects, this case recalls that of a woman who was admitted to Harvard circa 1995 and had her admission withdrawn beause she was previously convcted of a felony (manslaughter, I believe) for beating her abusive mother (? stepmother) with a lamp. Despite the fact she did time, was counselled and recovered sufficient enough to achieve academically and to get into Harvard, she was let go because of her history and because of incomplete disclosure of same during the application process.

Despite the announced acceptance withdrawl, it is quite possible that this series of events is not over and that with the assitance her assembled legal team, a mechanism will be devised to allow her to matriculate.

--posted by Ivy League Fru Fru @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 12:03 pm EDT

Given all the community service that the Hornstine family has done over the years, it is a shame that Mr and Mrs Hornstines' focus on trophies surpasses their love of service,community or honesty. I suspect that Mr Hornstine knew about Blair’s plagiarism, but he didn’t try to stop her. And , when the truth was uncovered, he didn’t tell her to admit she had done something dishonest. Great example set by a Judge here.

Despite being intelligent people, the Hornstines really blew it for their daughter.If her parents had been looking at the big picture for Blair, they would have not focused on whether she finishes ranked one, two, or ten in her class, but on ensuring that she get a good high school education, and that she attends a college where she can thrive both intellectually and emotionally. She was admitted to several prestigious universities. Her parents should have celebrated her successes, and her ability to overcome illness. I don’t know if any of the Horntine family’s friends or relatives told them to let this valedictorian issue go but they should have. It reminds me of how you pick your battles and that someone can win a battle but lose the war.

The Hornstines were caught in the litigious web that they spun.And they have the audacity to claim they filed the lawsuit to defend the “rights of the disabled.” What organization of disabled persons do the Hornstines represent? Did any disabled persons organization ask them to file this lawsuit on their behalf? If yes, which ones?

Does Blair deserve to have her acceptance to Harvard rescinded? I think Harvard taught her a valuable,free life lesson.Those of you who want to argue that point, please contact Harvard and discuss it with them, but then again, what do those people at Harvard know?

--posted by Voice from the agora @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 12:30 pm EDT

It's called karma. This young woman and her parents manipulated the system to their advantage and they were found out and are having to deal with the consequences. Too bad none of them have any moral/ethical backbone.

--posted by Disgusted @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 13:01 pm EDT

No, this thing is far from over. There's the matter of the settlement for compensatory and punitive damages arising from the original suit from the valedictorian suit with the school board, set for the near future. And there's the rescinding of the college admissions offer, which will probably be challenged and/or appealed due to the very recent discovery/announcement of the allegations of plagiarism (June 3) and lack of time to fully investigate. And there will probably be some investigation as to how the child was directed/advised in terms of publishing the articles in question, from the school, the paper and any one else involved. And there's the situation of having the family in question apparently already established at Harvard (ie, a sibling who is an alumnus and now at the Law School and a parent as an adjunct faculty member) and if the admission question will be resolved internally. And there will be a re-evaluation and possible re-structuring of how home school kids or children with special ed needs with be taught, evaluated and graded. And there will be a look at the whole tort issue about exposure of the school board and subordinates reagarding issues of disability and civial liberties. So regarding all concerned in this, the road to Hell was clearly paved with good intentions.

--posted by Watching from the Sidelines @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 13:44 pm EDT

Ivy League Fru Fru...

You are right ... it involved Gina Grant:

"Harvard made national headlines eight years ago when it rescinded its early admission offer to Gina Grant, a Cambridge Rindge and Latin School honor student who did not tell Harvard that she spent six months in juvenile detention for killing her alcoholic mother with a candle holder. Grant later accepted an offer to attend Tufts University."

from: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/193/metro/Harvard_said_to_revoke_admission+.shtml

--posted by cambridgema @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 13:47 pm EDT

Watching From the Sidelines yous said (above): "And there's the rescinding of the college admissions offer, which will probably be challenged and/or appealed due to the very recent discovery/announcement of the allegations of plagiarism (June 3) and lack of time to fully investigate."

Lack of time to fully investigate? Huh? Harvard need only look to the plagiarized essays to make their decision that Blair violated the conditions the college sets for admission. "Admission is contingent on five conditions enumerated for students upon their acceptance—including one which stipulates admission will be revoked 'if you engage in behavior that brings into question your honesty, maturity, or moral character.'"(from The Harvard Crimson - http://www.thecrimson.com/today/article348498.html).

Furthermore...

"According to [Director of Undergraduate Admissions Marlyn McGrath] Lewis, when an application comes under review, Harvard first asks a student 'to tell us in his or her own words what happened.'...'The admissions committee — composed of both representatives from the admissions office and professors—then meets to discuss the case. The decision on Hornstine followed such a meeting.'" (from: The Harvard Crimson - http://www.thecrimson.com/today/article348498.html).

--posted by cambridgema @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 13:59 pm EDT

--posted by cambridgema @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 13:59 pm EDT

[you said]

--posted by cambridgema @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 14:00 pm EDT

it amazes me that someone so "committed" to the community sues that same community's school district for so much money. furthermore, i believe you all are right, litigation may ensue regarding the admission offer, but i think harvard has plenty of recourse here (though i'm not a lawyer nor do i have complete faith in our justice system, so who knows). as far as i am aware, schools can choose who to admit, just as businesses can choose who to serve. i think they have plenty to substantiate their claim even if one ignores the allegations of plagiarism.


example: her celebrated "concern for the community," do her actions demonstrate that it is genuine? if not, this "calls into question" her honesty. to me, that in itself is grounds for withdrawal of the admissions offer. now, nobody would have known about it had it not been plastered all over the nation, and she could have gone on to harvard, grown up (my first three months at school were a time of great personal growth and change for me, i hope for her they will be as well), found her passion, pursued it, graduated, and gone on to a wonderful life. now she'll have to do so at another school. that's the price we pay for our actions, isn't it? those are called "consequences," and the justice system cannot always protect one from the true consequences of one's actions. one must learn eventually to face them alone.


time to re-write the discover scholarship page...


"Dream Job: No job, living fat & happy off of the $2.5 million I stole from the school district, and getting my degree via correspondence courses from Harvard, an institution which I also sued to be admitted into."


i honestly hope she doesn't win these upcoming battles, and is a big enough person to learn life's lessons instead of becoming bitter and/or a sore loser. but so far, i'm not too confident that that will happen. again, bravo to harvard for standing up for the school's stated beliefs.

--posted by mike @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 14:25 pm EDT

It is obvious that a person of such high academic performance must know the act of plagiarism. I have known many fellow students, both in high schools and universities, rejected admissions and kicked out of schools once found guilty of plagiarism: there should be no acception for Blair. It does not matter that Blair is a capable individual. As soon as she has shown a proof of such dishonesty as plagiarism, her admission should be rescinded, because it is clearly stated (in the card, which every prospective student signs soon after the admission decisions are sent to students, to let Harvard know that they decide to matriculate) that THE ACCEPTION IS CONTINGENT ON THE FACT THAT THESE STUDENTS REMAIN THEIR INTEGRITY AS WELL AS ACADEMIC PERFORMANCES.

People who have done wrong should be punished, to prevent them from recommiting the same crime and set examples to others. If Harvard ignores this guilt, then future admitted students will plagiarize and refer to this case to retain their acceptions. I am glad that Harvard have rescinded her admission and hope that this will set an example for future cases.

--posted by Harvard'06 @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 14:34 pm EDT

By the way, you may want to know that Blair Hornstine's acceptance to Harvard has been withdrawn. Please include this in the story. For more information in this regard, please visit http://www.thecrimson.com/today/article348498.html (The Harvard Crimson Newspaper)

--posted by Garret Whittaker @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 16:21 pm EDT

H'06

"It is obvious that a person of such high academic performance must know the act of plagiarism."

Yes, I'd like to think that teachers would take the time to teach it, but sometimes I'm not always sure. They don’t teach diagramming in English class anymore from what I’ve seen, heaven knows what else they’ve left out. But if she is as "AP" as her record says, one would be foolish to think that she had no such training.

But what bothers me is when, even as other Blair case spun up, her excuse laden "apology" (parodied by the late cretin) showed that she was not inclined link school based ethics with what she did for the paper. By that argument having a stash of hashish is ok so long as you are on the other side of the “Drug Free Zone” sign outside of schools. Now even the most slack generation X/Y kid can figure that that won’t fly, but apparently plagiarism is passable if you don’t write for a school assignment and you can’t do footnotes in the medium in which you are writing. Weird.

"People who have done wrong should be punished, to prevent them from recommiting the same crime and set examples to others..."

I belive the a quotee in the Crimson story refers to this as "singling her out and victimizing her." Egads.

--posted by Bill @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 17:11 pm EDT

Bill:
Wouldn't you agree that IF Harvard decides to accept her despite her proof of plagiarism, this case can be used for future reference by students found guilty of the same crime? What could Harvard say then? Because as much as Harvard might like to rescind admission of such students with lack of integrity, it would be awkward as soon as the kid say, "but you admitted Blair. Why should there be exceptions for me?"

That is my meaning for the sentence you quoted. I would not like to victimize anyone in my entire life: however, I would not like such above incident I point out happen to my beloved institution. And from your last line I assume you are saying Harvard is also one of the people who are "singling her out and victimizing her" (they are the one decided to take action, after all), and if you say that to my institution, then I'd like to end the discussion here.

--posted by Harvard'06 @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 19:13 pm EDT

Dear Cambdridgema, Hmmm, I now see your point as I had a chance to fully review comparisons of the student's work. In my opinion, the use and incorporation of previously written content by Ms Hornstine appears similar to that used by authors such as Stephen Ambrose and Doris Kearns Goodwin , both noted non-fiction writers, who were also publicly scrutinized and accused of plagiarism. As I am not a plagiarism expert, I will not say directly that she plagiarized, but the works in question are certinly highly suspicious. It certainly was suspicious enough for the Harvard College admissions committee. Yes, I think she is in a lot of trouble; it wouldn't surprise me that, if this thing goes on, some aggrieved author may turn the tort cannon on her and her family.

--posted by Watching from the Sidelines @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 19:29 pm EDT

I'm back!

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 19:33 pm EDT

"I'm back!

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 19:33 pm EDT "

Oh Lord!

Anyways.

SDS - "Now, however, the schoolboard is indicating that it is going to go over all of her work. To me this smacks not of the schoolboard doing the right thing, but of the school board trying to find a way to discredit Blair, and perhaps avoid a settlement or judgement in matter. While it may be prudent, it still smells of someone with egg on their face trying to find a way to get it off."

I would agree that it seems they are trying to discredit Blair, but really, I feel that they should. If the board is at risk of losing 2.5 million dollars, and there is a chance Blair doesn't diserve it, I would think they would be doing everything they could not just to save face, but to save money.

--posted by sigh @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 19:57 pm EDT

Any thoughts about what Blair will be doing in the fall? Do you think Rutgers would let her in? I'd sure hate for her not to go to college. She has so much to learn, after all.

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 20:00 pm EDT

Everyone who has trashed this girl should be ashamed of themselves. It has been said that if she had shared her valedictory honors, she would still be going to Harvard in the fall, but why should she have? She played by the rules that the school set up and came out number one, plain and simple. One can complain about the rules all they want, but until someone proves that she broke them, there is absolutly no reason that it should have even been suggested that she share the number one spot. And as for the plaigerism, yes it's wrong, but lets put this in perspective. She's not a professional journalist writing for the New York Times, she's a kid who didn't put in citations for some articles she wrote in the teen section of a two-bit local newspaper. People do dumb things, and they make mistakes, but because she fought for what was rightfully hers, and because of a national smear campaign that combed through her life and found her mistake, she lost her chance to go to Harvard, and since it's now July, will probably not be going to school in the fall. She deserves better.

--posted by Bill P. @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 20:31 pm EDT

Hopefully she'll make a genuine statement soon. She is such a young, promising woman. I would like to hear what she has to say. We've heard all of her attorney's statements, and via this website, every possible side of the story... But what can Blair say? As a member of the Philadelphia television media (I'm an assignment editor), I was compelled enough to be present at the federal hearing. Though Blair was not there, the media and those present heard from every other side of this matter. All of the energy invested into this website is lacking one thing--- remarks from Blair Hornstine.

--posted by holdennews @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 20:45 pm EDT

holdennews: please stop fishing for an interview on this web site. As I am certain you've left multiple messages with anyone who might get you an interview, her family and her lawyers know how to contact you, should Ms. Hornstine wish to speak to the media.

Isn't there some grieving widow or parent you can interview, just to ask, "how does it feel?"

--posted by MA reader @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 21:15 pm EDT

There's nothing to "put in perspective," Bill P. Whether or not Blair was getting paid to write for the newspaper is irrelevant. And Blair didn't just neglect to include citations, she used PARAGRAPHS that didn't belong to her. She didn't even bother to insert her own thoughts. There really wasn't anything in the articles that was her own.

In addition, it does not matter what section Blair wrote for. If teenagers are allowed to plagiarize, how come schools fail kids who do it? Finally, the Courier Post may be a local newspaper, but it is certainly not two-bit. While it is not nationally known (until now), NONE of the newspapers in New Jersey are. It's a small state. All contributors must sign a statement attesting to the fact that they will only submit original work. It does not matter what kind of newspaper it is, what section she was writing for, whether or not she was being paid, etc. If she signed the statement she has no excuse. Heck, she'd have no excuse even if she didn't sign the statement. Plagiarism is not a family value...

I am not ashamed of what I have said about Blair. If I ever threatened her or vandalized her property, that would be a different matter. I do not condone such behavior. But those who have questioned Blair's "illness," curriculum, grading, volunteerism, motivations, integrity, or maturity have nothing to be ashamed of. They have as much to be sorry for as those who have stood up for Blair. It's a two-way street. And what "smear campaign?" Blair didn't need outside people to smear her. She managed just fine on her own.

In conclusion, I will feel badly if Blair does not attend college in the fall. While I do not feel that Harvard is the school for her, I feel that she belongs somewhere. I hope she will find a place where she can become her own person, where she can achieve things on her own, without help from her father. She is no dummy. I sincerely hope that she someday becomes a productive member of society.

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 21:31 pm EDT

MA Reader: The organization I work for has no interest in interviewing Blair Hornstine. I have personal interest in the case because of its nature and the attention it has commanded. I am not fishing for an interview. I have no interest in an interview with her either. It does not take an interview for someone to release a personal statement. And as far as grieving widows and parents, no one made themselves available to us today, so there's no one I can talk to... but I'll keep "fishing" because you'll keep watching.

--posted by holdennews @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 21:41 pm EDT

holdennews: No, actually, I won't be watching. 1) I live in another state, and 2) I don't enjoy seeing sufering families badgered for statements. Thank heavens for newspapers and the internet!

--posted by MA reader @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 21:58 pm EDT

How do you think newspaper/internet reporters gather their information for stories? If you know as much as you think you know about newsgathering, then who are the other people standing around at a press conference or waiting for a murder victim's relatives to speak? Not everyone is holding a microphone and a camera... they're newspaper reporters and AP reporters (where most internet news is taken). And to say the media badgers, you reveal most of your knowledge regarding the media is from its depiction in Hollywood films. Just because you've seen Bruce Almighty, doesn't mean that is really the way the cookie crumbles.

--posted by holdennews @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 22:06 pm EDT

I've just discovered this interesting episode and this website devoted to comments about it. Today's "Harvard Rejects..." news led me to backtrack to find out about the case. I'm a college professor with no vested interest in the matter, but with some knowledge of academe, admissions, plagiarism, and student high-achievers. I've got several comments and questions.

1. Was the valedictorian status relevant to her college admission process? I assume not, because she probably applied early decision, while the valedictorian status would have to await at least mid-year grades. It's easy for us to say she should have generously shared the valedictorian honor, but if it would influence her admission prospects, then why should she take the risk?
Did the school superintendent ask whether she would share the honor, or simply announce that it was no shared?

2. How close in GPA were the 3rd-5th ranked students? With contemporary grade inflation, these top valedictorian candidates often are within hundredths of a point. If two can be honored, why not a close third as well? Many top students could claim justifications (illness, work, parental divorce), why only one course grade would have made a difference.

3. Lack of confidentiality has been unfair to her in this process, although some of the publicity has been her own doing. But why should Harvard Admissions announce or leak that a particular student's admission has been rescinded?! Such student information is protected by the federal Student privacy Act. We faculty cannot post student grades nor announce admissions, much less publicize disciplinary outcomes such as for cheating. Her attorneys will have a field day with Harvard's ill-advised leakage of what should have been a private communication to her.

4. Harvard has the discretion to rescind her acceptance, but were they being consistent? Would another student be similarly rejected because of, say, a shoplifting or drug possession or date rape accusation or conviction? (Didn't Teddy Kennedy get a mere suspension for plagiarism in his Crimson days?)
Is Harvard punishing her as a whistle-blower whose background was investigated more than other applicants because she dared to pursue what she (and the federal judge) saw as an injustice?

As a sidenote, when I downloaded one of the stories about her (from Newsweek?), that website must look for keywords to determine the surrounding banner ads -- and, yes, her story was surrounded by ads for term paper "research" companies!

This episode is fascinating because it raises sensitive ethical and social concerns about how competitive we should be. She obviously has infuriated many other intensely competitive (and envious?) people who wished her ill long before the plagiarism news appeared.

--posted by Cal prof @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 22:30 pm EDT

one question i have regarding the relevance of her valedictory status to her admission is the following: what difference does it make if she is the _sole_ valedictorian, or the valedictorian (one of two)? either way, she is the valedictorian. in one case, someone _else_ is _also_ the valedictorian, but what's the big deal? i knew of several co-valedictorians (this may have been due to equal GPA or other factors, but regardless, what difference does it make in the admissions process?)


i can almost guarantee that the two involved were not vying for one "spot" in harvard's class of 2007. i was admitted to a similar university, and plenty of valedictorians got in ahead of me i'm sure. i know some non-valedictorians from my high school graduating class who did very well at harvard. the term "valedictorian" is simply a decoration that is supposed to be a reward for other strong leadership and personal qualities. and besides, if it was that close, with acceptance yield rates as they are, the school would be more likely to admit both and count on yield for that particular year to come out about right.


so, your thoughtful post provoked a question, Cal prof--what difference does it honestly make if she's a valedictorian one way or the other? if they wanted her, she would be admitted.


and i agree, the matter of her offer being rescinded should not have been made public, but at this point that's water under the bridge. there may be something they can sue harvard for in that, though, so i'm sure we'll hear plenty more in the future.


one final thought on your post, Cal prof..."Is Harvard punishing her as a whistle-blower whose background was investigated more than other applicants..." i would say "yes," on the grounds that her background _was_ investigated more than other applicants. still, she signed her name to a paper that said "i am honest" and was caught lying. i think harvard has little leeway in the matter. see the posts above regarding the precedent it would set in these increasingly competitive times.


as for my own side note, i know for a fact several universities use computerized plagiarism detectors on computer programs submitted by students (with phenomenal success due to strong support amongst faculty and students, and an aggressive awareness campaign). academic disciplinary violations have gone down significantly since their deployment, after an initial surge of violations. i have _heard_ of similar things regarding papers, but the overhead involved in detecting plagiarism on hard-copy documents as opposed to those in digital form leads me to discount this as rumor. the point of my little sidebar, only those who are caught can be punished. she was caught, and just like a speeder, one who parks in a disabled space, or a litterbug, must now face the consequences. unfair? probably. does she still deserve to face the consequences? most definitely.

--posted by mike @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 1:02 am EDT

Never thought I'd say this, but hurrah for Harvard!

--posted by susan @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 1:59 am EDT

H06

"Wouldn't you agree that IF Harvard decides to accept her despite her proof of plagiarism, this case can be used for future reference by students found guilty of the same crime?"

Absolutely. To let her in would be a bad precedent and may open the door to appeals to previous [terminal] actions, not to mention future cases. Plus letting things slide like that can be demoralizing as hell to those students (hopefully the balance of them) who bust their chops to follow the rules. "Look: such-and-such got off due to the profile of the case and "mitigating" factors, meanwhile I spend x number of hours in the library, proofing, fact checking etc... why should I bust my tail?" Honor codes rules aren't there just as prevention, they also reinforce the morale of students who play by the rules.

"And from your last line I assume you are saying Harvard is also one of the people who are "singling her out and victimizing her" (they are the one decided to take action, after all), and if you say that to my institution, then I'd like to end the discussion here."

Uh no and parsing it that way is more than a stretch. That's the spin on things in the Crimson article by the Bliar's defenders regarding Harvard and the Anti-Blair cabal, H6, not mine. I was floored by that line, but not exactly surprised. It presented the look and feel that "everyone does it, they're just using our [unpopular] champion as an expedient example."

--posted by Bill @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 4:08 am EDT

I was wondering if Mrs. MM knows where Blair will be attending school this fall know that Harvard has revoked her offer for plagiarism?

--posted by Curious @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 9:24 am EDT

Cal Prof:

You ask (above): “Was the valedictorian status relevant to her college admission process?”

No. Two other students from her high school were also accepted into Harvard. In fact, the student who was being considered as co-valedictorian at Moorestown High, Kenneth Mirkin, will be headed to Harvard this fall.

Regarding the weighted GPA’s: Blair’s was 4.689 while Kenneth Mirkin's was 4.634. The following excerpt from the Weekly Standard adds an interesting perspective on the grading situation:

“…there's also a real belief that…Blair and her father did manipulate the system, and were acutely aware of every subtlety in the grading system. For instance, Blair took Latin 1 in middle school, over the course of 7th and 8th grades. Unusually, she then retook Latin 1 as a freshman--and got an A+. During her sophomore year, Blair was enrolled in AP U.S. History and was taking it at the school with a teacher whose policy is to never give A+ marks. But she dropped the course and finished it the following year at home, with a different instructor. She got an A+. Blair was enrolled in gym class in 9th and 10th grades (receiving an A and A+, respectively). Just weeks before the end of her junior year, she received a doctor's note waiving her from gym altogether. Still, an A+ for the class showed up on her transcript. Her father wanted the grade removed, and since she shouldn't have been graded for a waived class, it was. As Kadri explained to the court, an A+ in gym is worth only 4.3, and thus would have lowered her cumulative GPA, which was well above 4.3 by that point. At Moorestown High, the calculations for valedictorian are made at the end of the first semester senior year. Just a few weeks before that semester ended, Blair dropped AP European History--one of the two courses she was taking at the school--citing exhaustion. ‘The papers are killing her,’ Judge Hornstine told the child study team while trying to withdraw Blair from the class. At the time, Blair had an A- in the class. It would have been one of the lowest grades of her high school career.” (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/852lodkv.asp)

Regarding the “leak” of her admission being rescinded – someone at the Harvard Crimson obviously has a well-placed source. Over time, the news would have gotten out, particularly when Blair wouldn’t have shown up in Cambridge to start her first year.

Regarding other acceptances being rescinded, yes … Harvard has done so before – most notably involving local student, Gina Grant…and recalled in yesterday’s Boston Globe:

“Harvard made national headlines eight years ago when it rescinded its early admission offer to Gina Grant, a Cambridge Rindge and Latin School honor student who did not tell Harvard that she spent six months in juvenile detention for killing her alcoholic mother with a candle holder. Grant later accepted an offer to attend Tufts University.” (http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/193/metro/Harvard_said_to_revoke_admission+.shtml)

--posted by cambridgema @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 9:48 am EDT

“Was the valedictorian status relevant to her college admission process?”

CP:

(Regarding the privacy issues like FERPA, I think you have to formally waive the issue, eg the current Cal Poly case where a student has waived his confidentiality in part so he can better call for sunshine. If the Hornstines haven’t waived it, someone at Harvard is going to be shaved in cold water)

But…

“Was the valedictorian status relevant to her college admission process?”

Nope. Acceptances often come before the VD awards. They’re a happy surprise for the admission office so they can give the chancellor talking points for bragging and nothing more in the long run. This is one of the things that **really** bothers me the most here. Valedictorian status really doesn't carry you very far. It's bragging rights for people who may have to fall back on high school being the best years of their lives or a consolation prize for 4 years of hell while ignoring the future ahead. The Hornstines burned serious bridges for what is really a non-value (those laurels wilt after the summer of graduation).

In the long run, when I look for people, I'll take a kid that's been in the military or hard job experience and got very good grades in high school (not necessarily the top grad) long before I'd fawn over a hyper-achiever that is more interested in grades than professional development. To hell with “volunteering” and AP credits and valedictorian status and other superficial trappings. I want a fighter and a survivor. Because that’s what you find in a winner and a leader.

I am still not convinced in looking at Blair’s stance [her country club style volunteering, her AP hunger (for humanities and English, they're OK but, sorry, I've noticed that AP math/science may do high schoolers more harm than good if they aren't taught it "right")] that Blair et Pere&Mere had her long term future in mind, it all seems to be about resume building and that won't keep you where you're going unless you are going from one developmental nursery to another, and then to yet another ... I’m worried about that kid and all kids like her. They’re being sold a fake bill of goods.

--posted by Bill @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 11:40 am EDT

I agree with those who find the focus on the award of valedictorian misguided, and, like many posters here, worry about the terrible pressures on young overacheivers. I know that Adam Hornstine, Blair's older brother won many competitive scholarships that were often sponsored by corporations, required reapplying each year, and were not based on need. I suspect that all awards, including that of Valedictorian, can help in future scholarship applications. That is the only reason I can imagine placing any emphisis on this award after being accepted at all the colleges of your choice. It still makes so little sense to me given that this family is not poor.

To shift focus for a minute, does anyone have any ideas on how the plagiarism was uncovered. I know a Courier Post writer found the 5 articles/essays from which Blair Hornstine copied but I wonder if she used a software program to do this or just thought the language sounded familiar. Given that one of the sources was Potter Stewart, a rather obscure source for even a bright high school student, and a Justice who has not been cited recently except in briefs, memos and law review articles, how easy was it to find that Blair had copied? As was mentioned earlier, and from what I have learned, the source/cite checking software is expensive and its ease of use may depend on the format of the work being analyzed.

--posted by DM @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 13:20 pm EDT

For the Clinton Thanksgiving quotes you can do a Google search and there will be a couple of websites that quote the former President. I'm not sure how they found the sources of the other quotes.

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 13:32 pm EDT

Thanks Adam. Using Lexis or Westlaw, you can easily find the writings of Supreme Court Justices. Once the journalist found one example of blatant plagiarism, he or she may have been motivated to scrutinize all of Blair's writings. It is my understanding that Harvard based its decision to rescind on the plagiarism and nothing else. So this bit of resume padding was this young woman's ultimate undoing.

--posted by DM @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 13:46 pm EDT

DM

"It still makes so little sense to me given that this family is not poor."

Well in Adam's defense and those of other rich kids sheding the trustafarian image (should they be doing it)... If the criteria for an award or stipend is profesional development related, I'm all for the posh kids being able to go for it and prefer those scholarships over those that clock up hours at the cotillian bake sales that put daddy's little girl on the front page of the local paper. I'd definitely rather see edu-dollar$ go to students who are working for their independance and future instead of paying for the 'sin' of being born to rich parents (and using the local old boys networks to get the charity connections to come through). If Blair had actually been running up hours in a law office instead of cleft palate and prom dress showiness, I might actually have support for her.

--posted by Bill @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 13:57 pm EDT

How to detect plagiarism? Most students steal/borrow from easy-to-find websites. Pick out an unusual phrase of 4-5 words and go to Google advanced search, inserting the phrase under "exact phrase". I just did this with "Bush administration endeavors to mount" from one of Blair's newspaper columns and immediately received 5 sources: three were from recent news accounts about her plagiarism, and two were from the original author's websites.

It's more difficult to detect plagiarism if a student buys a term paper online, but some universities subscribe to a detection program that uploads student papers and crosschecks them against papers written elsewhere. Many cheaters are lazy, though. Last month I caught a plagiarist who used only the "free sample" essays provided by term paper company websites! Plagiarism is very common among today's internet-savvy students.

On the valedictorian issue: The most selective colleges like to brag that if they accepted all the valedictorians who applied, they could fill their all-valedictorian freshman class many times over. Here in California some of the public schools are designating multiple valedictorians, e.g. the top 10% of all seniors. This allows the students to list that achievement on college applications and reduces some of the nail-biting envy. (Public lower schools also require that if students give out Valentines in class, they must give them to ALL the other students, to prevent hurt feelings.)

My interest in whether the valedictorian status influenced Blair's college applications or was ex post facto being accepted. The most selective schools often do compare applicants from the same high school; thus, being the only valedictorian reminds the admissions committee that your GPA is a notch above those of your main local competitors. But with so many valedictorians applying to the most selective campuses, it's less important a factor than, say, geographical quotas (the top universities want to have alumni groups in every state and nation).

--posted by Calprof @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 13:58 pm EDT

The question remains:

WHERE is Mrs. M.M.?????

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 14:13 pm EDT

Calprof - I know that Blair was accepted to Harvard last December. The valedictorian award is made at the end of January of the senior year. At least as to Harvard, it didn't make a difference for her. She did apply to other schools and perhaps was undecided as to where she wanted to go. But in highly competitive school systems, the pressure on kids never lets up. You probably know better than most, how arbitrary admissions to top schools can be. These kids are starting early in elementary school to think about college. And being smart and hard working are more often than not, simply not enough. I see it as the parents' responsibility to keep their children sane and to guide them through this process so they maintain a healthy balance. You can receive a great education at most schools. This is more about status and in this case, it may have added to this young woman's health problems.

Bill - I agree that hard work toward becoming independent is important and admirable. It just adds to the many ironies in this story that this family could have afforded most tuitions and that maybe this young woman could have relaxed in late fall of her senior year, after her college applications had been mailed. Instead she felt compelled to keep adding honors and doing more amazing work using all means necessary even dishonest ones.

--posted by DM @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 14:29 pm EDT

Ha Ha Ha - Im just happy as a pig in mud that Im not a tax payer in Moorestown. Too high of an "litigious a__holes in flashy cars" ratio in that town for my taste. Hey Moorestown - thanks for the laughs!!

--posted by CPIV @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 14:36 pm EDT

Blair Hornstine's lawyer continues to "spin". Check out his comments in the current issue of Newsweek. Now he maintains that Blair chose to withdraw her application to Harvard due to a "hostile campus". Lawyers...gotta love 'em.

"Hornstine’s lawyer, Edwin Jacobs Jr., says the rejection was mutual. 'Blair had decided to tender a withdrawal of her application simply because of the rabid, negative publicity on that campus,' he says. Harvard won’t comment, but accepted students are always told that admission can be revoked for behavior that questions 'honesty, maturity or moral character.' .... 'Blair has been exploring other alternatives, namely campuses less hostile than Harvard,' says Jacobs." (http://www.msnbc.com/news/938181.asp).

--posted by cambridgema @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 19:02 pm EDT

Keep in mind Jacobs' comments from yesterday:

"Apparently the sentiment on [Harvard's] campus is very negative, and somebody decided to give a lot more weight than I think they ought to have given to this," [Hornstine's attorney Edwin J. ] Jacobs said. "I do not think there should have been a concern at all at Harvard over her admission based upon the publication of essays. I'm disappointed that so much attention was paid to something that has nothing to do with her qualifications, achievement or intelligence," said Jacobs. "And I'm very much distressed that someone [at Harvard] chose to make it public." (http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/6287557.htm)

--posted by cambridgema @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 19:12 pm EDT

Still, no remorse for the plagiarism. And I was feeling a certain empathy for the Hornstines, especially for Blair. The Newsweek reminds me that these people inhabit a very different world.

--posted by DM @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 19:33 pm EDT

Don't forget attorney Jacobs' statement regarding Blair's not attending graduation from her high school and thus passing on giving her Valedictorian address.

"On June 10, Jacobs sent a letter to Kadri informing him that 'the hostile environment at the school has traumatized Blair both physically and emotionally, to the point that she cannot and will not attend the graduation ceremonies.'" (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/852lodkv.asp)

Remember Jacobs' statement to the Associated Press?

"Jacobs, their lawyer, told the Associated Press, 'It was a whole lot of nothing. She wrote some fluff pieces for a kid-chat column. We have more important things to deal with.' (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/852lodkv.asp)

And how about one of her other lawyer's statement?

[Steven] Kudatzky told the Harvard Crimson, "I am confident that, at the end of the day, Harvard will see that this is a non-issue, and quite frankly, something that is another example of Blair being singled out and victimized." (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/852lodkv.asp; http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=348380)

Hostile environments! Non-issue! Victimhood! Unbelievable!

--posted by cambridgema @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 19:56 pm EDT

This - from the Weekly Standard - adds some perspective:

"Instead of hiring an expert in education law, Louis Hornstine hired Edwin Jacobs Jr. Jacobs is something of a legend in Jersey legal circles. He first rose to prominence in the mid-'80s defending Nicodemo "Little Nicky" Scarfo, a legendary Philly mob boss. With a practice in Atlantic City, Jacobs has represented a colorful array of organized crime figures along the Broad Street-Boardwalk corridor. How good is he? In 1998, he represented Philly drug kingpin Louis Turra, accused of plotting the assassination of underboss Joseph "Skinny Joey" Merlino. Jacobs never got to show his stuff on that case--Turra hanged himself in his cell before the trial started. But just three years later, Jacobs was defending Skinny Joey, who needed help beating a rap for three murders, two attempted murders, and a murder conspiracy charge." (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/852lodkv.asp)

--posted by cambridgema @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 19:59 pm EDT

The latest reaction at Fark: http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=587613

--posted by MonkeyBrains @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 20:47 pm EDT

Cambridgema it appears an expert in education law was hired.Read the case.Mr Jacob's law firm was not the only one hired.

--posted by John @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 21:25 pm EDT

We are all taught to share in Kindergarten. Had she been willing to grasp a concept most 5 years olds can (sharing), none of this would have went on and she would still be going to Harvard. Now she will be lucky if any Ivy League University will take her. Also to Another Moorsetown Mom, if the 2.5 million dollar demand was just to get the school boards attention, I hope that after the scheduled hearing, we will be reading about how she has dropped the suit for punitive damages. To take or any money for damages would deprive the school district and other disabled students. She should be ashamed if she takes any money especially since she claimed that one of the reasons she sued was to protect other disabled students. 20 years from now who is going to care who was the valedictorian.

--posted by Jules @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 22:18 pm EDT

John (you said: "Cambridgema it appears an expert in education law was hired.Read the case. Mr Jacob's law firm was not the only one hired.")

I merely quote the public sources to which I have access. Regarding legal experts in educational law having been engaged by the Hornstine family - I have no reference.

--posted by cambridgema @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 22:30 pm EDT

And in the end ... what effect/impact did her legal team have on Harvard's decision to rescind her acceptance ... whether or not she had lawyers steeped in educational law available to her? None. It's obvious from Jacobs' statement to Newsweek that she (and they - the lawyers) will not contest Blair's status at Harvard - since "...the rejection was mutual. 'Blair had decided to tender a withdrawal of her application....Blair has been exploring other alternatives, namely campuses less hostile than Harvard.' says Jacobs." (http://www.msnbc.com/news/938181.asp).

--posted by cambridgema @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 22:54 pm EDT

It's a little disturbing to see how much people seem to hate her. Sure, she's done some less-than-admirable things, and she doesn't sound like a charming individual. It sounds like she's also paying a large price - many people in her town hate her, and her first-choice school just pulled her admission. This reminds me of the Bible story where people had gathered to stone an adulteress, and Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Everyone left.

--posted by wendy @ Monday, July 14 2003, 1:38 am EDT

WENDY: I too am disturbed at the extent of some of the hate displayed toward Blair Hornstine. Some people don't seem to be wrapped too tight and if they think it has become ok to hate someone they come out spewing. You can also see a bit of this also in the 3 Fark threads – e.g. some think it is ok to disparage her looks. But this unleashed hatred is common - note what happened after people thought the US government said it was ok to hate Muslims or French people. The angry fringe will come out when it can.

Then there are the people who hate Blair (or her parents) maybe because she reminds them of someone they know who has gamed the system and taken "unfair" advantage. This is the discord between moral and legal legitimacy. Of course no outsiders really know what Blair & family are like or what the true situation is but it is easy to project onto them given the various "facts" that have been reported.

Personally, I don't hate Blair - she may be the victim, but may be on the road to being really hateful. However I do get the impression that her father has a warped notion of advancing his child. As to her mother, I have heard nothing - maybe she is weak and impotent or maybe she is the mastermind behind all of this.

I think most people's opposition to the Hornstine's behavior is legitimate. They personally would not behave that way nor would they want people they know to act like that. By quoting "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" you are saying that this family has everyday acceptable faults. But you seem to be implying that the opposition is motivated by jealousy, not horror.

--posted by MonkeyBrains @ Monday, July 14 2003, 3:26 am EDT

Well, I wouldn't call them "acceptable," but I'd guess that many people have done some things that they would not want publicized. No, the plagiarism wasn't OK, but she's not the first (or last) high school student who's cheated on something. The strong public outrage about David Cash at Berkeley made more sense to me. (He was the guy who did nothing while his friend killed a little girl, and then saw nothing wrong with his inaction.) Blair Hornstine seems relatively petty. It seemed nasty on Harvard's part to publicize the decision to rescind her admission. (The way they did it was slimy, IMHO - officially insisting that they didn't discuss individual cases, but then allowing an "anonymous" source to leak the information to the school paper.)

--posted by wendy @ Monday, July 14 2003, 5:13 am EDT

I can't help but wonder:

If Blair had actually apologized for plagiarizing, perhaps Harvard would not have revoked its acceptance of her. Maybe they would have anyway, but the fact that she made it clear that it COULD HAPPEN AGAIN must not have looked good.

--posted by cretin @ Monday, July 14 2003, 9:23 am EDT

"You can't fire me, I quit!"

Harvard doesn't admit those who plagiarize, but we do!

--posted by Nelson HA HA Munz @ Monday, July 14 2003, 10:29 am EDT

Webster's Third New International Dictionary of The English Language Unabridged. Philip Babcock Gove, Ph.D, editor-in-chief. Springfield, Massachusetts. Merriam-Webster Inc., Publishers 1986. 2263 pages


valedictorian 1. n. (from (L)valedicere, to say farewell, vale farewell, dicere to say) the student usually of the highest rank in a graduating class who delivers the valedictory oration at the commencement exercises. 2. adj. of, relating to, or having the characteristics of a valedictory or valedictorian (the -- speech). (p 2529)

--posted by Standing by the Sidelines @ Monday, July 14 2003, 13:14 pm EDT

Thank you. Although Blair was ruled to have had the highest GPA, she forfeited the right to call herself "valedictorian."

Maybe after the school reviews her work, she won't even be able to say that she had the highest GPA...

--posted by cretin @ Monday, July 14 2003, 13:30 pm EDT

I feel sorry for Blair. She is obviously an intelligent, but I think misguided young girl. It is obvious that her fathers entire existence hinges on him living vicariously through his children. Now she is not going to Harvard. I wonder how daddy H. feels now. Guilty I hope. I am sure he will "suggest" to Blair that she sue them also. As for Mrs. MM and S.D-S, please get a life. Both of your diatribes on this blog are annoying and self indulgent. You are monopolizing this blog. I bet both of you like to hear yourselves talk also. Mrs. MM you "know" too much information to be an outsider. Should we be calling you Mrs. H. S. D-S don't you have a company to run.

--posted by happyi am not from moorestown too! @ Monday, July 14 2003, 16:07 pm EDT

I've been filling in my background reading on this case. How important is being high school valedictorian? Harvard reports it received applications from 2889 valedictorians in 2002, out of the total 19,609 applications. Harvard accepted 20% of those valedictorians. The entering class of 1650 freshmen will include about 600 valedictorians.

Have there been similar cases of valedictorian lawsuits and of college acceptances being withdrawn? The news articles about the Hornstine case mentioned a lawsuit by Sharisse Kanet (of Hull, MA) who had the highest class GPA, but completed her graduation requirements in 3 years and spent her HS senior year at Wesleyan College taking courses in advance. The 2nd-place student's parents then asked that their daughter be moved up to #1 ranking and give the class graduation speech. The school board passed a new rule that a valedictorian must be taking h.s. courses during senior year. A judge threw out the lawsuit but the parents may continue on principle. To me, these ex post facto rule changes seem unfair.

I also looked up more information about two other notorious college students mentioned in your posts: David Cash, the Cal student, who took no action to prevent his friend from killing a little girl in a Vegas casino. Students clamored for him to be dismissed and threatened him in person, although his off-campus behavior had no bearing upon his student status. I couldn't find out whether he graduated; he's disappeared from news sources.

Gina Grant had her Harvard acceptance withdrawn. At age 13 or 14 she killed her mother, alleging abuse and alcoholism. She was acquitted of homicide but given 6 months of juvenile detention. Afterwards she moved north, wound up at Boston Latin School, and built an excellent record. On her Harvard application (which must ask about ("parental status") she said that her mother had died in a car crash, and it appears there was also a question about criminal convictions, to which she did not admit the killing of her mother. (Aren't juvenile convictions sealed by the court?) Someone exposed her background, leading Harvard to rescind her application. She went instead to Tufts, but a student group there posted warnings around campus that "a killer is coming". As with David Cash, I could find no information about what happened to this young woman.

I don't know how active the Harvard Crimson was in publicizing the Gina Grant case, but I see that paper has published several articles over the months about the freshman applicant Blair Hornstine, who would have met a very hostile reception had she enrolled.

--posted by Calprof @ Monday, July 14 2003, 16:57 pm EDT

If you search The Harvard Crimson archives, you will find several articles on Gina Grant.

--posted by DM @ Monday, July 14 2003, 17:05 pm EDT

I've updated my commentary with some more up-to-date information on Blair's plagiarism (with samples) and news of Harvard rescinding her admission. Nothing new that commentors haven't heard already, but good for new readers.

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Monday, July 14 2003, 21:57 pm EDT

Where did Mrs. MM go? Mrs. MM was on this board almost every day until Blair's offer was taken away. Mmmmm.... maybe Mrs. MM = Mr. or Mrs. Hornstine [who are now in seclusion].

I am trying not to be mean, but Blair opened herself up to further scrutiny. If you take someone to court, you should know that your life will be an "open book." Unfortunately for Blair, her "open book" was copied.

Hopefully Blair will take a year or two off from studying and actually show some remorse (which she has so far failed to do and that is why I am not sympathetic). If she does now show some remorse for the plagiarism, I agree that someday she deserves a second chance (even if it is at a second or third tier school). Enough said... live and let live.

--posted by Curious @ Monday, July 14 2003, 23:03 pm EDT

ADAM: Thanks for the nice update. I have two suggestions:

First, can you make the LINKS section contain all of the primary links (including ones used inline in your writeup), not just "additional info" ones? Readers could use the LINKS section to see when new links have been added. Also, if you structured the LINKS section then your writeup could link to tags in that section to refer to groups of sources. I.e. "online forums" could link to a section in the LINKS table containing links to many forums.

Second, I hope you are saving copies of all the pages you are linking to. Some websites delete pages or put them in an pay-for archive after a certain number of days. Of course for copyright reasons you cannot serve those pages to the general public, but someone should record those pages for reference purposes.

But anyway, thanks for your efforts and If my suggestions presume too much, then just ignore them.

--posted by MonkeyBrains @ Monday, July 14 2003, 23:17 pm EDT

ADAM: here is another link you may not have - the May 3 discussion at: http://www.plastic.com/article.html;sid=03/05/03/15441878

This story and comments may contain some new links for you but I did notice that some of them are suffering from "link rot".

Also in that discussion there is at least 1 comment from a reputed Moorstown senior: http://www.plastic.com/article.html;sid=03/05/03/15441878#99

--posted by MonkeyBrains @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 0:28 am EDT

Just a note on plagiarism - Harvard's policy seems to be pretty strict on paper, but there is some leeway. The important thing is for the Ad Board (Administrative Board, which handles such matters for undergrads - not sure if they linked up with Admissions in Hornstine's case) to hear what the student has to say "in his or her own words." My roommate is a teaching fellow and was involved in such a case just this past semester.

If they acknowledge wrongdoing (which, by the time it reaches the Ad Board, is usually conclusively proven), perhaps explain the unusual circumstances under which it happened, and convince Board that it will not happen again, they generally get a much more favorable response. In almost all cases, they will be forced to withdraw for at least a year.

The main issue is moral and academic integrity. Harvard doesn't want to believe its students are bad; they realize that honest people make mistakes, especially in high-stress situations. But they need to make sure that mistakes of that magnitude don't happen more than once.

The very worst thing a student can do is attempt to justify or deny their actions and express no remorse. Although we don't know what Blair actually told Admissions, her public response, at least, has seemed to be close to the worst thing you can do - she acknowledges wrongdoing but tries to escape culpability by claiming ignorance.

Her words express apology on paper, but her tone is "it wasn't my fault." And throughout the entire episode, there has been no substantive message of "I'm sorry for the trouble this has caused, I regret X, Y was a mistake, Z could have been handled differently," etc. We have heard nothing but self-righteous banter and moral-high-ground rhetoric, much of it from a mob-defending lawyer of questionable integrity. I think that, more than anything else, is why many find it so hard to sympathize with Blair.

--posted by HUGrad @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 11:21 am EDT

Hey, I am back from vacation.... I am sure most of you did not miss me.

Just a reminder for you to set your calendars for a year or two from now. The Blair Hornstine Story will be a book ( or books)and a MOVIE. She will be remembered in the same vain as Norma Rae and Erin Brockovich. Hopefully the movie premiere will be in Moorestown, N.J. Blair will have earned $2.5 million over and over. So glad for her. It could not happen to a better person!

Hope the MHS school board files bankruptcy because of their $2.5 payout plus the $1 million or so in legal fees. Good riddens to that Board. The trash in Moorestown deserves nothing better.

And then there is the invasion of privacy suit against Harvard.....Go Girl!

Casting? I hope that Demi or Julia play me (as they will be a little older).

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 11:33 am EDT

I was wondering if Mrs. MM knows where Blair will be attending school this fall know that Harvard has revoked her offer for plagiarism?

--posted by Curious @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 9:24 am EDT



I DO, I DO, BUT I WON'T TELL YOU at this point. Maybe, if I can find you, I could tell you privately. Don't you think She deserves some privacy for a few months? She WILL attend a top school and she WILL go there on full Scholarship. Da Da Da

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 11:36 am EDT

Well, I guess we know where M.M. sides now...

And I doubt if anything will come of a lawsuit against Harvard. They have been extremely careful, as always, and they are experts at C.Y.A. If some of the incidents that occurred when I was an undergrad hit the light of day...well, the point is that they didn't.

A lawsuit would seem consistent with the Hornstines' behavior, though. Unfortunately, winning suits doesn't necessarily make you "right," in the same way that good grades and paper awards and having Daddy drop off food at the homeless shelter doesn't necessarily win the respect of your peers or community. Good will and integrity do, and unfortunately they seem to be short on that, at least in the public eye.

--posted by HUGrad @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 11:52 am EDT

M.M., why do you think Blair will be earning ANYTHING? Your "inside" information (i.e. opinions) have been wrong time and time again.

The school board will have no need to file for bankruptcy. Blair's GPA will be adjusted when her high school plagiarism is uncovered. She will move down to where she belongs - to the bottom of the class.

And Mrs. M.M., valedictorians give the valedictory address. If Blair didn't go to graduation, how did she give the speech?

Finally, Blair Hornstine will be remembered in the same vein as BETTY BRODERICK. Does anyone else see the similarities? The ONLY difference is that Blair hasn't murdered anyone (yet). Otherwise, they are two peas in a pod.

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 11:58 am EDT

Mrs. M.M./Mrs. H. - shouldn't you be doing your daughter's college shopping for her? God knows she can't pack her own bags.

I know you think BCC is a top school, but COME ON. Oh wait, you're moving to Boston. I'm not familiar with the community colleges in the greater Boston area. Maybe you could educate us.

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 12:01 pm EDT

MonkeyBrains:

I'll see if I can update the links section in the future. I'm out of town for the next few days, so it might be next week when I get around to it. I haven't been saving too many web pages, so your idea to save them to disk is a good one. Thanks.

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 12:09 pm EDT

from Mrs. M.M.'s posting:

"She will be remembered in the same vain as Norma Rae and Erin Brockovich."

that's a fantastic freudian slip...

--posted by anonymous coward @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 12:15 pm EDT

lmao - I didn't even catch that!

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 12:19 pm EDT

HUGrad:

Yes. Blair got to state her case in person ...

"According to [Director of Undergraduate Admissions Marlyn McGrath] Lewis, when an application comes under review, Harvard first asks a student 'to tell us in his or her own words what happened.'...'The admissions committee — composed of both representatives from the admissions office and professors—then meets to discuss the case. The decision on Hornstine followed such a meeting.'" (from: The Harvard Crimson - http://www.thecrimson.com/today/article348498.html).

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 12:36 pm EDT

I doubt that the Hornstines will file a lawsuit against Harvard. Her lawyer Edwin J. Jacobs stated to Newsweek that she will not contest her status at Harvard - since "...the rejection was mutual. 'Blair had decided to tender a withdrawal of her application....Blair has been exploring other alternatives, namely campuses less hostile than Harvard.' says Jacobs." (http://www.msnbc.com/news/938181.asp).

Regarding "invasion of privacy" lawsuit - oh, come on; it won't happen. What do we have here? A well-placed source leaked the info to the Harvard Crimson reporter who is protected under the First Amendment. Blair's lawyer has publicly acknowledged the situation...and folks would have known of her acceptance being rescinded when she wouldn't have show up at Harvard this fall.

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 12:47 pm EDT

Well - there's always Bunker Hill Community College here in Boston. You will recognize it as the school portrayed in the film "Good Will Hunting".

So, I wonder if Judge Hornstine will be joining Harvard Law School's adjunct faculty this year ... or, if he'll pass. Hey, since the family seems be be pariahs in Moorestown, I wonder if they will indeed move here to the Boston area.

Best bet for Blair would be to take some time off; regroup; work on becoming an "independent thinker"; get some distance (physical and psychological) from her over-bearing and over-protective parents...then seek her own path and passions - hopefully in an environment that will allow her some anonymity (if that's at all possible).

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 12:55 pm EDT

So Mrs. MM ... let's see ... Blair will be considered a success in your book if she garners $2.7 million as a result of (successfully) suing the school district (which I personally doubt will happen)... and when she pockets even more money by telling her side of the story in book and/or movie form (which I doubt anyone will want to read/see; much prefering instead to read a third-party, objective account).

So you'd have her "game the system" some more; let her prolong her status as an outcast ... and let her magnify those unfortunate - and frankly, ugly - characteristics of human behavior for personal and ill-gotten gains.

I think she'd be better off ... and more happy in the long run to move as quickly as possible beyond her current predicament...and onto, hopefully, a happier chapter in life. Leave it all behind. Let it go, girl!

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 13:10 pm EDT

Mrs. MM.-
I'm happy to hear that you have such high hopes of Blair making a lot of money off of other people for something that she does not deserve. A year or two down the road, Blair may have a lot of you Moorestownians' money, but i doubt she will ever get any respect from almost anyone for as long as she lives. To me, thats not worth $2.5 million "over and over". A fool could predict that the Hornstines are going to sue Harvard. Why wouldn't they? They have already proved to the world that they have no shame.

See you in the theatre. Martha Stewart will play your role very well.

--posted by glad my parents arent from moorestown @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 13:19 pm EDT

Mrs. MM...fast forward beyond two years ... there's always the chance that Blair will end up a bitter, lonely, desperate spinster who despises her father for having placed so much pressure and expectation on her when she was younger by being the kingpin and puppetmaster who created a most untenable period in her youth. The potential for permanent psychological scars is tremendous here!

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 13:29 pm EDT

Mrs. M.M. -

Didn't Norma Rae (loosely based on the real labor organizer Crystal Lee Sutton) and Erin Brokovitch work selflessly on behalf of the rights of others? Please explain how Blair warrants being considered worthy of their company?

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 13:40 pm EDT

I'm telling you, BLAIR HORNSTINE = BETTY BRODERICK, minus the killing.

The similarities are astounding. Both believe that they can do know wrong. Both view themselves as victims. Both pretend to be advocates of certain groups (Blair is disabled, Betty is a scorned woman).

So in short, what are the differences?

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 13:52 pm EDT

I'm sure the movie deal will be a big success. Maybe she can team up with Jayson Blair and Linda Blair in "The Plagiarist".

--posted by Tom D @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 14:07 pm EDT

roflmao!

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 14:15 pm EDT

Its common sense that if you use someone elses work, you cite the source or it is considered plagarism.

Being a Harvard applicant, and described as "intelligent," youd think she would share this common sense on the subject of plagarism. You cant blame a disease. Im glad her Harvard admission was recinded. She is a cheat and does not deserve it. If I copied work and called it my own, I would lose my college diploma. Does she deserve any different just because she hides behind a disability? I think not. She should face up to what she did. Her claim that there is "no room to source" is not a valid defense. Get real. Thats childish. She should live up to the adult standards that come with her high GPA.

E

--posted by easy e @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 14:38 pm EDT

its rather funny, actually. Claiming you did not know any better is no excuse. Thats like driving down the sidewalk in China. Youre still breaking codes and laws.

E

--posted by easy e @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 15:07 pm EDT

E, you obviously understand nothing. Mrs. M.M., Douglass-Smith-Jones, and others have made it clear that Blair can do no wrong. Are you starting to get it now? Everything she does must be right. It is we who are wrong.

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 15:10 pm EDT

So... if im crippled in some way... Ill always be right. But what happens when you pair two crippled people against each other? "CRIPPLE FIGHT!" Hmmm.

E

--posted by easy e @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 15:31 pm EDT

If you were REALLY crippled, you wouldn't always be right. You have to PRETEND to be crippled. And having a dad who's a judge helps, too.

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 15:46 pm EDT

Regarding Blair's purported "disability" ... I am starting to believe others that it was and is a fabrication. From what I've read her "disability" kicked in for her senior year. Up to that point she had been attending high school classes. In order to seek "competitive advantage", I suspect that she - and Daddy - decided to seek an exemption from the "normal" routine.

"She and her family have never disclosed the exact nature of her disability; it is alternately referred to as 'chronic fatigue' and an 'immune system disorder.'....The cynics point to her activities. In 2000, Blair ran with the Olympic torch when it came through Philadelphia. The Inquirer reported in May that she works out at a local gym. She went on the senior class trip to Disney World this spring, and in the summers, she does intensive academic work. During previous summers she enrolled at the University of Pennsylvania and Cornell. Last summer she spent eight weeks at Stanford taking classes in Expository Writing (A-), Psychology (A), and Philosophy of Public Speaking (A). Interviewed in July 2002, she told a reporter from the Courier-Post, 'If I didn't lead a busy life, I'd be bored. And I hate being bored.' In June 2001, Blair was given the Congressional Award Gold Medal. To qualify for this honor, students must complete and document 400 hours of voluntary public service, 200 hours of personal development, 200 hours of physical fitness, and a 4-day exploration. Kelly Fanning, from the Congressional Awards office, says, 'For her physical fitness she did jogging, power-walking, and dance.' Moorestown High School students, it should be noted, take roughly 75 hours of Phys. Ed. class per year." (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/852lodkv.asp).

If she were still going to Harvard, I bet her "disability" would have magically lifted when she arrived in Cambridge, allowing her to go at full-steam to build the next chapter of her "curriculum vitae".

I suspect that there might even be private investigators hired by the School Board (and/or possily by an investigative team for an evening news weekly - like 20/20 or 48 Hours, shadowing her every move, seeking to "capture" evidence to discredit her. After all, there's $2.5 to $2.7 million dollars of potential damages at stake ... and a public eager to tune into a juicy expose.

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 16:00 pm EDT

Cambridgema, Blair started receiving homeschooling while in 10th grade. Word has it that her grades in Latin and Algebra 2 started slipping. She dropped out of those classes, and finished them at home. You guessed it - she received A+s.

It is amazing that Daddy let her skip school to pad her resume. School should come first.

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 16:13 pm EDT

cretin:

Yes ... and to reprint the post from above ... the following shines a bright light on Blair's and Daddy's manipulative behavior:

“…there's also a real belief that…Blair and her father did manipulate the system, and were acutely aware of every subtlety in the grading system. For instance, Blair took Latin 1 in middle school, over the course of 7th and 8th grades. Unusually, she then retook Latin 1 as a freshman--and got an A+. During her sophomore year, Blair was enrolled in AP U.S. History and was taking it at the school with a teacher whose policy is to never give A+ marks. But she dropped the course and finished it the following year at home, with a different instructor. She got an A+. Blair was enrolled in gym class in 9th and 10th grades (receiving an A and A+, respectively). Just weeks before the end of her junior year, she received a doctor's note waiving her from gym altogether. Still, an A+ for the class showed up on her transcript. Her father wanted the grade removed, and since she shouldn't have been graded for a waived class, it was. As Kadri explained to the court, an A+ in gym is worth only 4.3, and thus would have lowered her cumulative GPA, which was well above 4.3 by that point. At Moorestown High, the calculations for valedictorian are made at the end of the first semester senior year. Just a few weeks before that semester ended, Blair dropped AP European History--one of the two courses she was taking at the school--citing exhaustion. ‘The papers are killing her,’ Judge Hornstine told the child study team while trying to withdraw Blair from the class. At the time, Blair had an A- in the class. It would have been one of the lowest grades of her high school career.” (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/852lodkv.asp)

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 16:18 pm EDT

cretin:

Can I assume from the Weekly Standard quote (above) "Just weeks before the end of her junior year, she received a doctor's note waiving her from gym altogether." that she was still "in school" through to the end of her junior year? If so, it's ever more likely that she was scheming for advantage in the final stretch.

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 16:22 pm EDT

Cambridgema: I'm not sure what to think anymore! There is so much conflicting information.

The only thing we know for sure is just how manipulative this family was.

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 16:24 pm EDT

"Odds are slim that it was Blair's idea to make a federal case out of her class ranking in the first place. Especially when you consider that she's just 18, and that her father is a state Superior Court judge. In Moorestown, folks openly doubted her disability, listed in court papers as an immune disorder that causes chronic fatigue. Many figured Blair's dad for a scholastic Svengali, handcrafting her special schedule to guarantee his little girl got the top spot. In the end, if Blair has anyone to blame for being denied her dream to attend Harvard - or Princeton, Duke, Stanford or Cornell, which say it's too late to take her - it may be Daddy." (http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/6304202.htm).

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 16:27 pm EDT

I love it ... Judge Hornstine = scholastic Svengali. It sure seems to suit him.

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 16:28 pm EDT

"She got an A+. Blair was enrolled in gym class in 9th and 10th grades (receiving an A and A+, respectively). Just weeks before the end of her junior year, she received a doctor's note waiving her from gym altogether. Still, an A+ for the class showed up on her transcript. Her father wanted the grade removed, and since she shouldn't have been graded for a waived class, it was. As Kadri explained to the court, an A+ in gym is worth only 4.3, and thus would have lowered her cumulative GPA, which was well above 4.3 by that point."


How come no one has asked her or father why they dropped her PE class even though she received an A+?

--posted by Jon @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 16:32 pm EDT

Mrs. MM claims (above) that Blair "...WILL attend a top school and she WILL go there on full Scholarship."

Since published reports indicate that her "safety" schools (Princeton, Duke, Stanford [and] Cornell) say its too late to take her, I wonder what "top school" has late admissions. And as stated above (by Nelson HA HA Munz): what top school wants to have the honor of accepting a plagiarist?

"Harvard doesn't admit those who plagiarize, but we do!"

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 16:39 pm EDT

...it's too late to take her...

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 16:39 pm EDT

Okay, Creaptin, Just suppose for a moment you are correct, which YOU ARE NOT and listen...

Blair got sick in ninth grade; her doctors recommended that she receive some or all of her schooling at home. The MHS school board had their doctors review the findings of Blair's doctors. The MHS administration approved her IEP schooling. The MHS prepared the program of study for her at home and at school and grading standards to follow. She was offered the choice of the same courses that the other students took. She was even given many or almost the some tests prepared for other students that were schooled at MHS. MHS or its administration or school board chose each, every and all teachers with the exception of the Latin 3 or 4 teacher which they could not immediately find. When this teacher was found, they approved the choice and this teacher's credentials.

Okay, again, let's suppose that there was an iota of truth in your statements, (which there is not)....the above paragraph is the absolute truth and 100% correct. Now, who can blame anyone besides the MHS administration, school board, teachers, etc. for this situation. If (and I use a big IF),Blair was not really sick (which she is) and this situation was a scam, don't you think that the Moorestown admistration, et al look like a bunch of damn fools????

The Moorestown administration is the fool. Plus, they tried to change in mid stream (at the end of her senior year) and made themselves more foolish and at the butt end of having to pay damages.

Yes, Cambridgema, they have circled the wagons and have spied everywhere on her. The only problem the spies found was the plagiarism scandal(not that that is small) when the AUNT of the moronic school board dug up those stories.

Now the school board president is again looking at Blair's work for the past four years, in order, as reported in the newspapers to find some negativity in her school work so that the Board can attempt to use it against her to lower her monetary award that she will get from the school.

HUGrad: I have it on some pretty good authority that Harvard CAN be sued in this situation. They did not CYA with the publication in the Crimson of the rescinding of her admission. You see, the quote from the paper "...according to a source involved with the decision.". was not an official one, and this article was published without officially notifying Ms. H. either before, the day of or the day after of the revoking of her admission (nor possibly as of this date). That is clearly an invasion of her privacy.
Also, it not the "proper" way things are handled. Would Harvard do something that is not "proper?" Can you imagine a family being notified of their soldier/son's death in Iraq by reading it on the front page of the local newspaper???? It has happened, but the US government, I think, cannot be sued. If it would happen in a local car accident, for instance, and the police tell the papers not to release names and they do, the remedy can be financially costly.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 16:52 pm EDT

Mrs. MM ... it's time to start putting your past comments into perspective - on July 5 you said: "I have it on indisputable information that Blair's works in school and her essays/writings for the scholarships she won were gone over in painstaking detail. There was not one iota of evidence in these works that they were not COMPLETELY hers, ie. no plagiarism found." Later that day you stated "I cannot provide you with the 'indisputable info' that you require. It is not a written piece of info. It is something that I have from a solid source."

How does your obviously unfounded claim square with published reports such as: "[Cyndy] Wulfsberg [, Moorestown school board president] said the district would eventually scrutinize Hornstine's high school classwork....'To the extent that it is possible to look into her work, it's our responsibility to do that,' Wulfsberg said." ?

I take any of your statements and claims of "inside knowledge" with a grain of salt.

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:03 pm EDT

cambridgema: I only know of ONE of her "safety" schools who said it was too late to DEFINITELY take her THIS YEAR. Published reports you say????Isn't that gossip? So you have REAL info? I don't think so, because you are not correct.

Maybe she will enter as a freshman with the name "cambridgema" and be protected by the US government until this blows over? But with the books and movies....I wonder if she will make an appearance.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:08 pm EDT

The Harvard Crimson is a student newspaper. I don't believe that what is printed in it is determined by the authorities at Harvard--rather, the student reporter and student editors would make that call. I am not a lawyer, but I do not believe that a newspaper has any obligation to inform anyone of their intent to publish an article.

Why does everyone assume that the paper's source was on Harvard's side? The description could conceivably cover anyone on the Hornstine's side, as well. In addition, at this point in the school year, some preparations must be already in hand for this year's incoming freshman class. A resourceful reporter could think of any number of things to keep track of, in order to ascertain if Blair Hornstine were planning to attend. Room assignments, counselor assignments, post office boxes, telephone directories, etc.

--posted by MA reader @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:11 pm EDT

Mrs. M.M. - there's no legal remedy available to the Hornstines vis-à-vis the student-run campus newspaper having reported on Harvard's rescinded Blair's admission. The staff writers - Elizabeth W. Green and J. Hale Russell - were doing their job - and sourced the info from a confidential source. Shall George Bush file suit against the New York Times (or any news source) and hold the paper – and its staff - responsible for the recent leaks "by senior administration officials" regarding the fiasco involving flawed intelligence concerning Iraq supposedly purchasing uranium from Africa?

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:14 pm EDT

Cambridgema: Cyndy Wulfsberg knew that Blair's work had been scrutinized; Kadri was attempting to save face previously. The school board is trying again to go over her work with other 'sources', as they are looking for an "out" to limit the dollar damages that the school board is facing. The school board has about a month to make another financial offer to Miss H. or it will go to damages trial next year. I believe you only have part of Ms. Wulfsberg's quote.

--posted by Mrs . M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:14 pm EDT

No, The Federal Government and the President of the United States are not bound by the same principles. It could, and I say could, be Federal vs. State. Private people vs. public? Often, you will read that a Movie star, for instance, sues for privacy. Once in a while, the decision will be against the star saying that because "they" are so popular, they are a "public" person.

If you or your child receives an acceptance or rejection from a university (not this case), you or your child are entitled to a private notification ---certainly not a bumper sticker that says CAMBRIDGEMA REJECTED FROM UNIVERSITY OF ..

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:21 pm EDT

MA Reader - very good points!

Mrs MM - published reports - yes ... I believe that the publications which are reporting on the current Hornstine situation (i.e. Newsweek), etc. are credible. I am confident that the journalists (such as those at the Philadelphia Inquirer) who are covering the story have indeed checked with the admissions offices of Princeton, Duke, Stanford and Cornell and have received affirmation that it's too late to take Blair. I certainly put more credence in them as a source of accurate information than I do you. Your track record from previous posts is abysmal.

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:21 pm EDT

Mrs MM - I'm not a lawyer ... but, do believe that Blair is now considered a "public figure". She's open for scrutiny and public comment. There's no veil of privacy there to protect her.

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:24 pm EDT

Like George Bush's regrettable comment last week to Iraqi insurgents, I say to Blair - "Bring 'em on!”

If Harvard has trouble marshalling the financial resources from its $18.5 billion to defend against a lawsuit from Blair (which I doubt will happen), as an alumnus I'd be more than happy to contribute to a legal fund for my alma mater. I suspect many of my classmates would join me!

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:30 pm EDT

...from its $18.5 billion endowment...

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:31 pm EDT

Are you 100% positive that Blair is not going to Harvard THIS year? Next? Law school?

She is no more a public figure that Madonna's daughter.

Please show me one place where my track record is "abysmal."

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:38 pm EDT

Mrs MM - huh? you said "No, The Federal Government and the President of the United States are not bound by the same principles."

Last time I checked all Americans are equal under the law...and afforded the same rights and governed under the same pinciples.

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:39 pm EDT

...principles...

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:40 pm EDT

I hope Ms. H. gets a large chunk of that $18.5 billion. That in addition to the was from MHS, the books and the movie. Move over Bill Gates...he didn't need the pomposity of being a Harvard grad.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:40 pm EDT

Trust me - Blair Hornstine is a public figure! We're all talking about her. The press is reporting on her. The legal system is dealing with her.

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:41 pm EDT

Are you 100% positive that Blair is not going to Harvard THIS year? Next? Law school?

She is no more a public figure that Madonna's daughter.

Please show me one place where my track record is "abysmal."

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:44 pm EDT

FYI ... Mrs MM...Bill Gates isn't a Harvard grad ... he dropped out to join up with his high school buddy Paul Allen to start their foray into computer software. While he never completed his undergraduate degree he has been extremely generous to the University, financially and otherwise.

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:44 pm EDT

There may well be books and movies about this affair, Mrs MM, but I fear that they will not be nearly as sympathetic to Miss Hornstine and her family as you seem to think. Their actions in this mess have so far resulted in their becoming pariahs in their community, the exposing of Miss Hornstine as a plagiarist, her rejection by Harvard, and nationwide ridicule. If they succeed in extracting a couple of million from the public school system, perhaps it will be worth it to them. I doubt it will improve their image. I think they will rue the day that they filed that lawsuit, and would be best served to drop it now. Had they dropped it after winning their effort to have her declared sole valedictorian, I suspect she would still be going to Harvard this fall.

--posted by Tom D @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:49 pm EDT

You write "the legal system is dealing with her." That sounds like a negative. She is dealing with the legal system. She may be losing in the court of public opinion, but the money she will win dealing with the legal system will clothe, feed and house her and provide a wonderful bankroll for her future, so her children won't have to be the self righteous, arrogant, egocentric, stuffy, pontifical and narcissistic graduates of Harvard. Stanford sounds good to me. So does the University of Wisconsin...

--posted by Mrs/ M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:53 pm EDT

Tom: After her trip to Harvard in May, she decided not to attend Harvard. I know that sounds like sour apples to you, but you will find out in the future that this fact is true.

Oh, the rest of you, I don't want to hear about the sour apples. Take it for what it's worth. Talk to me in October. October, I say.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:56 pm EDT

Mrs. MM:

>... so her children won't have to be the self righteous, arrogant,
>egocentric, stuffy, pontifical and narcissistic graduates of
>Harvard. Stanford sounds good to me. So does the University >of Wisconsin...

I can't speak for the other universities, but I don't think she nor her children would get a sympathetic response from the students at Stanford.

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:57 pm EDT

Yes, I know Bill Gates did not graduate from Harvard. That was my point. Read his thoughts, books, etc. He couldn't stand the arrogance of the place. Some people are SMARTER than Harvard know-it-alls. Bill Gates did not need a Harvard education. Neither did Paul Allen. Gee, Microsoft, the sports teams, the financial pledges.... yeah, that's because of non-Harvard. Bill Gates may be generous to Harvard, but he is extremely more generous to other universities.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 17:59 pm EDT

Adam: Start the petition for Stanford.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 18:00 pm EDT

Mrs MM...

I merely interpret the facts available to me. I am entitled to my opinion regarding Blair's and her father's behavior. I do disagree with you on many points. That is my perogative.

I feel sorry for Blair. I do think, though, that she is “reaping what she has sown.” I hope that she can move beyond the current state of affairs. She does need to deal with the fact that she has plagiarized and she needs to take responsibility for it. She then needs to move on. I hope that she gets whatever help is available – above and beyond that from her family – to process what she’s been through. I hope that she – and she alone – can find her path … the one that she wants to follow – and not the one that her father is setting course for her.

I do believe that her father has been responsible for trying to "game the system". I think use of the legal system in this affair has been and is unseemly on his (and by extension - her) part.

I personally think it is likely that a judge will throw her damage claims out. I also don't think she will file suit against Harvard, since I don't think there are any grounds for her to do so. I think it is time for her to “move on”. Take many steps back, get some distance, take many deep breaths, cry as much as you need to…and move on.

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 18:06 pm EDT

I guess we hnow ave to consider Blair's brother to be a "self righteous, arrogant, egocentric, stuffy, pontifical and narcissistic graduate of Harvard". Anyone know where Judge Louis F. Hornstine did his undergraduate or graduate studies? Harvard, maybe? I do know that he's been an adjunct professor at the Law School. Welcome to the ranks, Louie!

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 18:13 pm EDT

i'll sign the stanford petition. she's too high strung to do well there (and there are a lot of high strung overachiever undergrads there, too...especially the pre meds, chuckle). it's not the school for her.

besides, her public actions are already violations of stanford's "fundamental standard". i really don't see how they could possibly accept her (even late) unless they are exceedingly compassionate. furthermore, her dormmates would most likely not respect her, and her professors would be put in the difficult position of keeping a special eye on her academic work. not good living or study conditions for young blair.

she needs a big, non-residential school where she can be anonymous. just my two yen.

--posted by mike @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 18:19 pm EDT

Oh, come on now Mrs MM ... Blair decided in May not to come to Harvard! Come on...what are you smoking? Why then did she come up for an admissions and administrative review of her application in the past few weeks? Once again, you add some spin and revisionist history. You need to coordinate better with her attorney Edwin J. Jacobs. Just this Saturday he said in response to Harvard rescinding her application: "I do not think there should have been a concern at all at Harvard over her admission based upon the publication of essays. I'm disappointed that so much attention was paid to something that has nothing to do with her qualifications, achievement or intelligence." (http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/6287557.htm)

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 18:21 pm EDT

Cambridgema: The judge might find for the Hornstines, and award a nominal sum for damages, such as $1.

All of the Ivies, and other leading national universities, have exceedingly competitive applicant pools, and very low admissions rates. Harvard leads the pack, with an admissions rate of 9.8%, and more than 20,000 applicants. They could probably fill their class several times over with serious candidates. This probably fuels the academic frenzy among the ambitious. I can see no argument for a leading school to admit a serial plagiarist; indeed, it would be an insult to other, more deserving students, on their wait list.

--posted by MA reader @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 18:34 pm EDT

Cambridgema: I don't dispute that you are entitled to your opinions. I did ask you to tell me where I told an untruth. An opinion, that is another story. I have NEVER stated on this blog anything that is untrue. I have stated MY opinions also, which I have clearly stated as my opinion, or I believe, etc.

I am not sure why you totally blame her Father. Again, if that is an opinion. If not, I would like to hear facts from you. If her Father "gamed the system", as you stated, I am not sure that it is totally wrong. She is disabled, but as I have said over and over, it is not as obvious as someone in a wheel chair. She only "took" or "was given" from the system, what the system provided. She "passed" the requirements for these "academic" qualifications.
Your opinion...go for it.

THE JUDGE IS NOT THROWING HER DAMAGE SUIT OUT. THE JUDGE HAS BEEN WORKING WITH THE PARTIES TO SETTLE THIS
financial damages in the case. In the end, the Judge could and might come up with the sum, but THERE WILL BE A SUM. Harvard? It COULD come to a court case As far as the high school, the school WILL pay damages.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 18:37 pm EDT

Louie did not, I repeat did not attend Harvard as a student. He earned his degrees in Pennsylvania and New Jersey and Nevada. He has a bachelors, a JD and a Master of Law. He is also a graduate of the Judicial college. That is enough info.He was never a valedictorian or salutatorian.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 18:41 pm EDT

Read into what Ed Jacobs Said.....

The Judge will not award $1. The Judge is very concerned over this case. If you read her opinion, the no-gooders of Moorestown are mentioned in her findings. This alone will cause the Judge to grant bucks.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 18:44 pm EDT

its ashamed shes extorting our tax dollars for self gain. She already won the principle suit, now shes just a whore to money. you can thank her lawyer in part for that.

Shes not out anything. She got her way. She should drop it. But like I mentioned before: she lacks maturity; if she was mature she would not have made a big deal about any of it.

E

--posted by easy e @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 18:52 pm EDT

if the case was about principle it would be over. now shes just greedy. she wants easy money.

E

--posted by easy e @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 18:56 pm EDT

There was no doubt that this case would have been dropped when the Valedictorian issue was settled.

However, the not-so-good people of Moorestown jumped on the negative bankwagon, paintballed the home, threatened harm, etc. She deserves all the money she can get from most of the citizens of Moorestown for their instigating, gossiping and disrepective behavior. When the rest of the children of Moorestown suffer because programs are cut,and classes are overrun with too many students, let the parents take a little heat and see what THEY caused. Then maybe, they will have this iota of understanding of how they treated Ms. H., how they feel and how THEIR children suffer. While we work a little harder, Miss H. should sail off to a better place. Tough, tough, tough, Moorestown. Blame Kadri, Dr. Shangold and Wulfberg. Let us call a spade a spade.

You have never heard any teacher, administrator or member of MHS state ANYTHING negative about this case. They know what went on and what goes on. Think about it. These teachers will have to work harder and make do in the long run,(maybe have pay cuts and tax increases) but you don't hear them complaining about Miss H. They know the truth.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 19:33 pm EDT

The teachers and administrators are, presumably, bound by privacy laws. They can't say anything.

--posted by MA reader @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 19:37 pm EDT

Oh, bull. Privacy relates to her marks, her medical test results,etc. Opinions are not private. School is out!

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 19:45 pm EDT

Poor innocent Blaire. She did nothing except instigate everything thats being dished at her.

E

--posted by easy e @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 19:46 pm EDT

Cambridgema: I just reread some of the posting from this past week. Cal Prof on July 12 wrote "3. Lack of confidentiality has been unfair to her in this process, although some of the publicity has been her own doing. But why should Harvard Admissions announce or leak that a particular student's admission has been rescinded?! Such student information is protected by the federal Student privacy Act. We faculty cannot post student grades nor announce admissions, much less publicize disciplinary outcomes such as for cheating. Her attorneys will have a field day with Harvard's ill-advised leakage of what should have been a private communication to her. "

That does back up my assertion that Ms. H. is protected by a privacy act, the Federal Student Privacy Act. And that backs up my feeling that she should and could sue the "grand old lady" - Harvard.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 19:58 pm EDT

easy, she did not incite or provoke. She went to school and followed the program set out for her. Instigate - no way.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 20:00 pm EDT

sure she did. if she heard she was going to be co-valedictorian, she should have smiled at the honor and said "the more the merrier". Backlash is not a good thing, no... but she provoked it by suing. She should have sucked it up like the mature person a person with a gpa like hers should have. My friend graduated university with a 3.998. Ill be honest, he took a class in which most people got an A. However, the people who got A's cheated. He was honest, and got a B+. It was the only class in which he ever recieved less than an A. Did he sue? No. Where is he now? Hes making top dollar in a state job with excellent benefits. He has many friends and is a very good role model.

What does it say of Blaire when she sues over something so petty? It just shows her class (or lack of, I should add). If she had not been such a baby, everyone would be happy.

Based on her maturity level, Id say we should buy her a pack of adult diapers. She needs 'em.

PS, I like this group... it is intelligent debate. I like that you disagree with me, Mrs M. M. and I respect you for it.

E

--posted by easy e @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 20:17 pm EDT

Ah ... but Mrs. MM... MA Reader makes a good point (above): "Why does everyone assume that the paper's source was on Harvard's side? The description could conceivably cover anyone on the Hornstine's side, as well. In addition, at this point in the school year, some preparations must be already in hand for this year's incoming freshman class. A resourceful reporter could think of any number of things to keep track of, in order to ascertain if Blair Hornstine were planning to attend. Room assignments, counselor assignments, post office boxes, telephone directories, etc. "

How will anyone ascertain who leaked the fact that Harvard rescinded Blair's acceptance? The courts can't compel the Harvard Crimson reporter to reveal his source?

What evidence is there that Harvard is culpable? And ... by the way, culpable for what?

--posted by Ralph HA HA Munz @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 21:23 pm EDT

Thanks Easy. Since I happen to be one of about one who agree with the lawsuit and understand it, I appreciate it that you are not dancing on my head.

I respectfully disagree with one of your comments and I have repeated this over and over and over: She sued to be a valedictorian. She was not being considered as a, an, co, part of, etc. Valedictorian. I know many disagree with me, but since I was at the hearing and I heard the Judge ask the attorney for the Moorestown Board of Education, whether Ms. Hornstine was going to be a, an, co, etc. Valedictorian. The attorney for the Board, after conferring with the President of the Board of Education, said he could not answer that question. The Judge brought up the letter that Kadri, the super, wrote to Kenny Mirkin telling him he "was being considered as Valedictorian." Again, the Judge mentioned that Kenny was the ONLY one who received this letter, even though the Board said they might have as many as three Valedictorians. (Don't forget this was in May, when a decision had to be promptly made). If Blair had received this letter or the attorney for the Board answered that Blair would be a, co, one of, etc. Valedictorians, the Judge would have thrown out the case. The Judge felt very strongly that Blair was not being considered. I have over and over quoted the Judge and copied here that section of her opinion which affirms what I am saying. You, too, can read it. You, too, can make a decision for yourself by reading it. If you cannot find the paragraph, let me know, I will point you to it.

If the township had not become so mean, paintballing, threatening, etc., the suit would have been dropped. All Blair originally wanted was to speak before her class as the Valedictorian as she felt that she had earned it based on the MHS handbook for selection of Valedictorian. The new Superintendent, Kadri, was being intimidated by Dr. Shangold, Kenny Mirkin's Mother who wanted her son to be Valedictorian. So Kadri attempted to intimidate Blair in a public forum, and she fought back.(Dr. Shangold and Kenny with THEIR lawyer attended the hearing and sat with the Board of Education fighting for Kenny's to be class Valedictorian.) Many do not believe, but I KNOW.

This case was not petty to her. She felt that she had earned this honor or part thereof and was willing to fight for what was right. She wants to be a lawyer and fight for the underpriviledged. She had to be true to herself.

This has nothing to do with the Plagiarism. Please don't tell me that they are related. When it came to the lawsuit, it was not.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 21:32 pm EDT

Ralph: I do not know what side the Harvard paper was on. I do know that the young lady who wrote this last article for the Crimson had previously written other articles not favorable to Ms. H. True, a resourceful reporter could look up room assignments, etc., but these items were NOT determined at the point that the article was written. The courts cannot,as you say, compel the reporter to reveal her source. HOWEVER, and this is the big HOWEVER, Miss H. records, letters, etc. are protected by the Federal Student Privacy Act. This invasion of her privacy was brought up in the High school suit when the Superintendent revealed Miss H.'s GPA to others. This Act protects each and every student. No one but the student him/herself is privy to his/her marks. Even the parents who pay for the university cannot request or get these marks without the consent of the student.

So, as I see it and a Cal Prof above sees it, Miss H. had her privacy invaded with the public release of the information rescinding her admission. As of the day after the article, Ms. H. HAD NOT personally received notice of this revoking. She read it as you and I did.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 21:46 pm EDT

This is a good discussion forum, in which I'm trying to develop a reasoned judgment about this episode. Some points on topics recently raised:

1. The vitriol toward Blair Hornstine; I don't know the girl or her family but imagine her as a 17-19 year old whose worst transgressions would be (a) to work too seriously toward societal goals of competition and success, and (b) to be born into a family that pursues these goals beyond community norms. An early poster said that her critics suffer schadenfreude, the malicious glee we feel when those above us suffer misfortune. I agree, noting that our delight in the "feet of clay" of high achievers is because their downfall makes us less anxious about our own excesses and failings. Hornstine's plummet means that we were right in not working so addiduously for success, AND now there's one fewer person above us and making us feel anxious about our own status. So we feel good at her problems.

That said, I also think that the lawsuit for damages was ill-advised, seeming petty and anti-community. She would also have been wiser to make personal appearances instead of press releases, face up to the hostile commencement mob, and apologize for the plagiarism even if she truly wasn't aware of doing wrong. Those would be political and diplomatic, if not principled tactics.

However, if she is in fact disabled, then would we be so critical of the valedictorian lawsuit if the school's reason were something like "a woman is winning; this year, let's have both a male and female valedictorian;" or "another white student has highest GPA again; let's change the rules to have the best valedictorian for each racial group!" Although I think the disabled classification is much exploited, isn't it also a social designation to protect against discrimination, much as with gender and race?

2. On the violation of confidentiality: The issue isn't whether the Harvard Crimson had the right to print news of this applicant's rejection. Journalists have a shield law against forced disclosure of sources. The legal issue is about which Harvard administrator or faculty member violated confidentiality by leaking this official action to the press. No one will admit it, most likely, but a lawsuit could get this small in-group on record either as admitting the violation of university policy, or as denying any transgression, under oath. You may wonder what's wrong with the facts coming out, but would you want all confidentiality violated, such as whether Elizabeth Smart was raped by her kidnapper (and how...?), and what's the sexual history of Kobe Bryant's accuser? If the police leaked these case details to the press, would you want the police department to care about those violations of individual confidentiality?

3. A minor question: why should a student get an A+ for a PE class she never attended? Doesn't the school have some provision for a credit/no credit grade?

4. Another minor: How can the high school promise to examine Blair's course work for plagiarism? Aren't all essays and term papers returned to the student? This issue sounds like a sham.

5. Why assume that staying away from class helps a student? Didn't she have to take some of the same exams as in-class students?

6. This whole episode seems to have begun when parent(s) of the valedictorian runner-up met with the (principal, superintendent?) simply to promote self-interest, not out of any more altruistic goal. Thus the public official seems to have attempted to impose retroactive rule-change because of pressure or favoritism from one group against another. This was wrong, and the taxpayers may have to pay, much as in my city, we pay for damage suits by victims of police violence, drunken bus drivers, and other public employee misbehavior. Shouldn't our anger be directed at the incompetent public employee and system that employed them, not at the target of their poor judgment?

7. Finally, my guess is that Harvard is too strong in the legal profession to worry about a lawsuit and won't be sued, but the high school district may have to pay at least court/plaintiff attorney costs for their errors. The school district sounds affluent and should at least have insurance. Even you who think Blair is a selfish phony should concede that a whistle-blower who pursues correcting an injustice should not suffer for having prodded the courts or schools into a fairer law.
If I were the judge, I'd award her side $1 plus attorney and court costs.

I hope Blair goes to a university worthy of her ability, and that -- like other young students her age, she develops her own career goals and her own methods to fight for principles.

--posted by Calprof @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 21:50 pm EDT

I wanted to comment on Blair Hornstine's lawsuit against the school district.
Let's take, for the sake of discussion, as a given that the school district tried to bypass Blair as valedictorian.
Where is the precedent for monetary damages in this type of case in the history of American Law? I am not an attorney, I am just asking a question. If anyone knows of any examples please post them.

--posted by Voice from the Agora @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 21:55 pm EDT

Huh? I don't see any evidence that Harvard revealed grades, marks, etc.

I do see the resourcefulness of intrepid student reporters, reporting what they have learned. How can "THE UNIVERSITY" be held accountable? After all, someone from Blair's side may have passed the info on. It's conceivable that her brother, Adam, might have even mentioned the situation to a recent fellow graduate - who passed the info onto the Harvard Crimson. We'll never know. There is no direct link; no direct evidence to the source.

--posted by Ralph HA HA Munz @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 21:57 pm EDT

I have read the previous Harvard Crimson articles - and they all seem to be "balanced" and "fair" to me - reporting objectively on the situation. I see no evidence of bias.

--posted by Ralph HA HA Munz @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 21:58 pm EDT

As a matter of fact ... the Harvard Crimson gives significant coverage for Blair's side of the story - quoting her attorneys and spokespersons on numerous occasions. Fair and balanced.

--posted by Ralph HA HA Munz @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 22:05 pm EDT

Hi all... Interesting discussion. By the way, there is no need for a movie deal. There is a movie already with a plot amazingly similar to the events. Title: Election. It came out 4 years ago. An ambitious overachievers goes over several bodies with the help of her mother (a paralegal on nervous breakdown drugs) only to become a student body president and go to Georgetown. A well-rounded arrogant manipulator. The end is sad (or happy, depending on what side you are on).

--posted by new kid on the block @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 22:06 pm EDT

Hi Cal Prof: Since I have been posting here for an eternity, and you seem new, perhaps, I can update you on some info.

#1. Personal appearances. She had to be taken out of the area for two plus weeks because of the written, phone and e mail threats of harm, the paintballing, egging, obscenities painted at her home. People taunted her Mother in the food market, etc. Even a member of her class publically (although probably joking) said he would like to wring her neck. Police were stationed at the home. Police and the school could not guarantee her safety at school or graduation. Graduation was to be held (at the last minute it rained, so it was inside) in an open football field. With thoughts of Columbine, the world, guns, fire crackers, etc, her safety was an issue.

Her disability is not obvious to all. As she only spent a few hours a day in school, the general public could not determine her handicap. She does have a serious one. The public makes comments like she walks with her Father in the evening or "I have seen her at an exercise facility with her Mother." These comments only stir up the gossipmongers who lack facts and like to see misfortune.

Her lawsuit was ill-advised? As a Monday Morning Quarterback, you and I could say that. If you asked Miss H. she would tell you NO WAY. She feels she is a champion of the underpriviledged (see her resume of the charity work) and has to be true to herself. If you read the MHS handbook (it was online), you will see that the selection of Valedictorian was to be based on the senior with the highest GPA at the beginning of the seventh semester of her high school career. Miss H. had the highest GPA at the beginning of the seventh semester. In fact, I am sure she had the highest GPA for a year or two or three prior to the seventh semester. She only wanted what she worked for based on the school rules she followed. This handbook covers school rules including "parking privileges, etc.

2. Her rights of privacy were violated in high school and now at Harvard.

3. In lieu of PE, Miss H. had to present a sixteen page paper EACH YEAR as a substitute. That paper determined her PE mark.

4.The school previously examined much of her work. Now, they are attempting to dig further, because as Ms. Wulfberg, the School Board President, is quoted as saying - if they find problems in her work, their financial liability may be lessened.

5. She spent a few hours in the school building each day. She took most, if not all, of the same tests as the in-school students did. Staying away from school was a hindrance, not a help. There were no study groups, no discussions, etc. Despite the gossip, her Mother did not grade her papers, the school chose her teachers, and she had no extra time for exams.

6. You are 100% correct. Hopefully, this new expensive superintendent will say bye. The school board is elected. They are trying to cover their ***** in hopes of being reelected. The School Board is already under scrutiny for spending an excess of money in a search for Mr. Kadri, when he was only a few miles away in another district.

7. Federal Judge Wolfson was so dismayed at this hearing because of the mistreatment of Miss H and the community rebellion that I think if the case is not settled, she will make a generous award to the Plaintiff. I also hope that Harvard bears some of the pain of this article. This Univesity thinks they are above scrutiny because they are Harvard. You know the expression: Their sh** doesn't smell. I do think there is an odor coming from Cambridge.

I whole heartedly agree with you - I hope that Blair goes to a university worthy of her ability. I am sure she will pursue her goals to fight injustice. I only hope that she will not suffer from this much longer, and it will be just a stepping stone to a wonderful future.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 22:31 pm EDT

Mrs.MM. I have a very simple question. If her disability kept her at home for part of the day, how was she going cope in Harvard? Wouldn't the strain of a tough curriculam at Harvard affect her health more?

--posted by new to the board @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 22:41 pm EDT

My educated guess is that she could choose the courses she wanted to take, limit the credits and only go so many hours per day. College is not 8-3 like High school. Possibly because she had so many AP courses, she could offset the number of credits she took each year. I do believe she could get away with 3 courses each semester. What is the worst that could happen? She would have to return home or take a semester off.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 22:46 pm EDT

Mrs. MM:

>Possibly because she had so many AP courses, she could offset
>the number of credits she took each year. I do believe she could
>get away with 3 courses each semester.

We know that Blair took AP courses at MHS, but do we know if she took the AP exams themselves? At Stanford, you only get credit if you scored a 5 (sometimes 4) on the AP exams. I assume that Harvard has something similar in place for dealing with AP test scores.

If she didn't take the AP exams or scored poorly on them, then I doubt that she would have gotten credit for them at Harvard.

You are right in that college is not like 8-3, it's more like 10 am to 3 am the next day!

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 22:52 pm EDT

Can't answer if she passed all of her AP tests. I know she took some if not all. I know she passed some if not all.

All Blair does is study when not doing her charity work. I suppose with naps between or not going to class every day, she could survive. We both know that we took lots of naps. And then there is a social life. I had a great one. Bet you did, too. Maybe for Blair, it will be all work and not much play. That is what she is used to. Can't imagine her going out for a beer and a pizza.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 22:57 pm EDT

Oh, Adam, I forgot. She did go to Stanford last summer. I know that when her roommate or the "girls in the dorm" went to San Francisco on weekends or on other little jaunts, she had to stay back because of her health.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 22:59 pm EDT

Then again, Adam, would it be a tragedy if she were on the 5 or 6 year plan? In other words, she took more than 4 years to graduate.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 23:02 pm EDT

FERPA Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act 20 U.S.C 1232g, 34CFR Part 99

PPRA Protection of Pupil Rights Amendment
20 U.S.C 1232g, 34 CFR Part 98

www.ed.gov/office/OM/fpco/ferpa

--posted by SATS @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 23:13 pm EDT

First of all I am not sure if a person like Blair who wants to excel will take more than 4 years to complete undergrad degree. Yes she can take get AP credits but enough AP credits will put her in the sophomore standing in the first year of colege - which means that she will be taking tougher courses. Mrs. MM - you seem to know a lot about Blair. Do you have an educated guess why an intelligent person of her caliber would fail to give proper credit for the citations she used and why has she not come out and said that she is sorry. I can really understand someone making a mistake once but not repeatedly. Moreover it is OK to make mistakes but it takes a really Great person to accept the mistakes and say sorry. ALso what is the use of doing so much charity work and then suing the school for so much money?

--posted by new to the board @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 23:13 pm EDT

Mrs. MM:

>would it be a tragedy if she were on the 5 or 6 year plan? In
>other words, she took more than 4 years to graduate.

There's nothing wrong with taking extra time to graduate from college. However, if she was on a reduced course load, she would be paying a lot more money to stay on for a few more years.

One thing that has never been mentioned in the press has been how she scored on her AP exams. Knowing her scores would help to settle the debate on whether or not she deserved all the A+'s she received at MHS. This is because AP exams are the same for everyone. I'm assuming that she had the same amount of time to take the exams and took them with all of her other peers at the same time.

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 23:19 pm EDT

Well, take a few days and find your name in more pointless tripe. Cretin, you really need to take a break, while your posts are certainly more respectful, the abuse of my name is childish and frankly, boring. My name does not include Jones, and I have never defended on this thread or anywhere else, plagiarism. I have said, and I maintain, that the paper carries a measure of responsibility. For what it's worth, people who work in my ad division do not plagiarize, nor do they work blind, the copy editors go over their every word, using sophisticated software to weed out possible copyright violations. I invested a large sum of money in this software because I want what I do to be original. It is. To imply that I have said Blair was not capable of wrong doing is misleading at the best, and at the worst, it is an outright lie.

Every person is capable of wrongdoing, and your personal assaults on people throughout this thread are ample proof of your true intentions. You act as if you are the only person who has either a.) a valid opinion, or b.) a brain. You are not, and frankly your opinions show a bias that extends beyond acrimony at what you perceive Blair to have done, and into personal dislike for the entire family, which appears based on personal experience rather than objective review of the known facts.

You have taken words I've written and twisted them so many directions it's a wonder that I can recognize them as words I once wrote. Given that you're a plagiarist yourself, how then, are you any better than Blair? Should we not endeavor to deny you any right, or entitlement because of your actions? Should we not paintball your house, make lots of threats, (including death threats), and generally make your life a living hell because of what YOU did? After all, it's what you recommend for Blair and her family. Isn't what's good for the goose good for the gander? The point is that you are no better, and she is no worse than you, or I. She made a mistake, a big one, but not a criminal one. She may have some personal liability, but she most certainly does not have to live her life with her head stuck in the sand.

Martin Luther King Jr. plagiarized most of his Doctorial Thesis. Of course, he was so beyond all of this petty stuff, that it was overlooked, but the fact remains. I am not advocating plagiarism, in fact I detest it. I have said all along that Blair will pay a price for it, CambridgeMa asked what I would think if Harvard said no to Blair, and I said she would have reaped what she'd sown, and now... she has, mutual or otherwise.

What price would you have her pay for all of this, any of you? She's lost Harvard, she's lost respect, and face, and her family has been outcast from the social circle it inhabited. Mass murders are less ostricized than Blair has been, which goes to show the true mentality of the people of Moorestown. They would show more mercy to a dog, or a cat, and who's to say the dog wasn't rabid, or the cat hadn't just got though killing the other neighbor's bird? This whole thing is way out of proportion, and the plagiarism, while an issue that has made it's importance known, is not a world shaking, earth shattering event, and to trumpet this girl's actions, when the erstwhile Dr. King, Jr. was essentially ignored in a Doctitorial Thesis is not only wrong, it's arrogant, repugnant, and ultimately, pointless. Move on, get a life, or at least put this in perspective.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 23:27 pm EDT

Mrs. M. M.:

If Blair Hornstine is so incredibly brilliant, why does her essay on the importance of footnotes (http://www.courierpostonline.com/static/st060303g.html) contain:

"The importance of properly citing works that have been relied upon to make new conclusions cannot be understated."?

[I'm not even addressing the fact that it is a complete non-apology - she professes ignorance several times, but never expresses regret for her actions.]

--posted by anonymous coward @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 23:58 pm EDT

Maybe Blair can sue Harvard and her brother Adam can help defend Harvard as an independent study project while at Harvard Law School? NO WAY will Blair sue Harvard if she has a decent bone left in her body. If Blair loves her brother she will let her Harvard dream go and let him complete Harvard Law School in peace.

I personally would drop the whole issue and forget about it, but Mrs. MM keeps me coming back to this forum to see her ridiculous predictions... book and movie deals that will make Blair rich? You are joking, right? If she sells this story she will be no better than Monica Lewinsky or Amy Fischer. I would guess Blair would not want to become more famous through a book deal or movie. I bet she just wants this issue to die asap. Blair is not going to Harvard so those who dislike her are presumably happy. Blair will "win" a few dollars to cover her legal fees, but she will never get $2.5 million. Mrs. MM, I am sure Blair is great in your eyes, but she is not Bill Gates or the next messiah. She is a smart, tenacious, misguided young lady who made some mistakes that she must live with and learn from.

--posted by Curious @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 0:32 am EDT

*bzzt* ... thank you for playing blair. sorry to see you go. we've got a few consolation prizes for you. johnny, tell her what she's won! onto our next round ...

--posted by whatthe f*** @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 2:11 am EDT

While Blair is certainly not Bill Gates or the next messiah, who is to say she won't one day make more money than Bill Gates, or provide the unspoiled womb for the next messiah?

The fact is that Blair Hornstine is predestined to succede mostly because of her upbringing, and generally because of her brain, which is a good one. Everyone makes mistakes, most of us, however, are not beaten over the head with it on a daily basis.

The most costly mistake: IBM licensed DOS instead of buying it, estimated cost, 7 Trillion dollars, and counting. Did you ever hear about how IBM beat up the CEO for not buying DOS?

Most costly humanity mistake... WWII, Hitler underestimated the resolve of the world, and Japan flat didn't have a clue, with the possible exception of Yamamoto who said, after the attack at Pearl Harbor, "I fear that we have awakened a sleeping giant, and assured our defeat.'

Most costly intelligence mistake: Misreading the clutter prior to 9-11, and the obvious planning that became so clear in the aftermath. 3000 paid the price in one fell swoop, for what we missed.

Relevance to Blair Hornstine's mistake: obvious, one cost trillions, killed millions, and destroyed much of the world. One cost trillions and gave birth to the most wealthy company on earth, and the arguably most powerful software vender the world will ever know. One opened the eyes of the average Joe to the dangers of the world, and the anger it holds for our benevolent country. And one points out that no matter what the cost, no matter what the loss, the bottom line is that in America we don't like a whinner, and Blair is seen as one, but it doesn't justify the crucification that is being subjectively administered to her. She is a child, smart as hell, but a child none the less, are we so jaded as to let this mistake determine the outcome of her life, or will we move beyond it, and help her up to her final destiny?

If we don't, then we become the prognasticators of the next great mistake, and that is of judging others unworthy, whilst we arrogantly fail to judge ourselves.

That would be the greatest shame.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 2:14 am EDT

What the f***? Bill Gates. Hitler. What? BTW - it's spelled "succeed". How did we get from a *plagiarist* to this? What the f***? Pass whatever your taking along to me. Party on!

--posted by whatthe f*** @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 2:20 am EDT

Good Golly Miss Molly, I made a typo, or couldn't spell, or something, OMG, tar and feather me at dawn, and don't scrimp on the firewood to boil the tar!

We got there this way, I was pointing out how this mistake, plagiarism, (not a criminal deed) PALES in comparison to other mistakes that have either A.) recieved far more play, ie WWII, Hitler, Japan... B.)Far less play, a 7 TRILLION dollar and counting choice to license instead of purchase DOS.

As for what I'm taking, can't help you, I don't imbibe, I don't smoke, and I don't take drugs of any kind. May be why I can think clearly enough to correlate all those mistakes and show how this issue is so out of proportion to truly important things in the world. Maybe you should consider rehab in order to understand the simple points.

Interestingly, you totally ignored the information about Martin Luther King Jr. plagiarizing his Doctorial Thesis. Mayhap it wasn't as important as the Blair Hornstine thing, I dunno.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 2:28 am EDT

MaggotMouth, get over yourself. You've been wrong countless times before, and you're wrong now. We all know it.

I know it makes you feel special to be the only Blair apologist on this web site, but it only makes you look STUPID.

Why don't you take your OPINIONS and shove them where the sun don't shine...

S. Douglas-Smith, I am aware that MLK Jr. was a plagiarist. So was JFK. I'm not a fan of either of them.

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 7:44 am EDT

What a sad story!! There are no heros or heroines here.

I have read the entire opinion of Judge Wolfson, I have read all of the posts here, and I have reviewed much of the news coverage. There is nothing about which anyone can be proud. BH and MHS were made for each other. They deserve each other. I would say "go for it folks," but what an incredible waste of time, talent, and money.

For Mrs. M. M.: Do you think for one minute that anyone buys the proposition that BH is "fighting for the underprivileged"? How condescending! Give it up.

--posted by Dismayed @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 8:41 am EDT

" BH and MHS were made for each other. "

That is probably why Judge Hornstine decided to live in Moorestown in the first place.

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 9:03 am EDT

S-D-S, the reason we ignore the fact that Martin Luther King Jr. plagiarized his Doctoral Thesis is because Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson might be at our front door calling us racists. I am not touching that issue, as MLK is dead and cannot explain his actions or repent. However I do believe he did a great thing for the USA [fighting for civil rights] and for that I am extremely grateful. His plagiarism was wrong and if discovered before his death, I am sure he would be asked to tell his side of the story.

S-D-S, based on your heritage, you basically preach wisdom and learning from mistakes (I agree). Christians (New Testament) basically preach repentance and forgiveness (I agree). Mrs. MM seems to be preaching an "eye for an eye" (Old Testament) philosophy (I disagree). Mrs. MM basically believes Moorestown deserves what they got (a lawsuit) and that Blair deserves millions in book deals/ movies (as payback). Two wrongs do not make a right... Blair should not seek an "eye for an eye" or let her anger get in the way of good judgment. Mrs. MM, I hope you did not teach your students how to "get back" at those who harm you the way you are proposing Blair solve her problems. People will leave her alone if she apologizes for certain actions which were wrong. People involved would probably forgive Blair if she asked for forgiveness. Maybe then some of the other "players" in this saga would take the "high-road" and apologize and all can forgive them too.

--posted by CEW @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 9:31 am EDT

> Blair submitted a 12 page paper each year in lieu of participating...
> she had to prepare a 16 page paper for grading...
- Mrs. MM

12? 16? blame my nitpicking tendencies.

--posted by lurking @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 9:43 am EDT

Judge Hornstine,

You call yourself honorable? What have you helped your daughter with, so far, that has made anyone in Moorestown New Jersey look or feel honorable? You have succesfully turned your town into the laughing stock of our nation. Good for you. And now that you are leaving to go to Boston, why not take a couple million of the community's money on your way out? Thats a great service to your community. I wish that you could sit back and look at the hipocracy of your actions and the way that you look from other's eyes. I have no respect for you. You did everything humanly possible to get your daughter to have the best resume possible with no regard for her public image. Do you think that she is proud to be who she is? Mrs. MM said that Blair is/was not a popular girl. Do you care if she had friends? I bet she cares. I bet she would be a much happier person if you just let her go and find herself a little bit . It sounds like you are living vicariously through her. School is VERY important. But so is having a social life. A solid social life combined with a great amount of intelligence leads to a more well-rounded person. Do you realize the pressure that a child goes through, especially at that age? You are teaching your children VERY poor morals.
I learned to play a board game when I was young called lie, cheat, and steal. Apparently you learned how to play it too. Maybe you made the game yourself. 1) You taught the art of lying first by that bogus disability. You can say whatever you want about the validity of your claim. Bull S**t I'm sorry, there is no way that she could be able to satisfy the physical fitness portion of the Presidential award that she won, while being so disabled that she couldn't take formal gym class. She is just a girl under a lot of pressure from you that gets tired and needs a break from it. It's common. I bet you are a person who thinks that any kid on a sugar high has ADHD. 2) You then moved on to teach them the skill of cheating by finding any means possible to get a higher GPA by manipulation. i.e. the latin crap that was pulled between 7-9 grades. I want to throw up. 3) For your grand finale, you chose to teach them how to steal by leaving for Boston by tossing up your middle finger at your own town and lining your pockets with a couple million of their tax dollars. Congratulations.

I wish you would move to Connecticut. I would commit a crime just so I could make fun of you at your own bench. I would tell the entire courtroom that you deserve to go to jail, which you do. I don't even know you, yet I feel that I could pick you out of a crowd. You would be the only one at a comedy show not laughing, the one taking money from the tip jar, the one shaking the vending machine, the one complaining that the coffee is too hot when he spills it in his own lap, the one pissed at the traffic in front of him when HE is running late, the one who drinks his ass off and smokes a pack of cigarettes but blames the headache on the workload, the one that buys the lotto tickets for the office pool and keeps the money for himself from the winning ticket, the one who doesn't have to worry about leaving the seat up (if you know what I mean). You are "that guy", Sir. I just hope that your daughter doesn't continue to follow in your footsteps by being "that girl".

--posted by glad my parents aren't from moorestown @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 10:54 am EDT

If the parties don't settle, Judge Wolfson will not determine damages. This will have to go to a jury which will be expensive and far more problematic for the Hornstines, not to mention what the process will do to a young woman with health problems exacerbated by stress. I suspect that the insurance company will urge a settlement and though the Hornstines will not get the millions, they will probably get something just to go away. I think it is most unfortunate that a few awful people in Moorestown violated the Hornstine home and threatened their safety. But most of the people in the town wish these people no harm. The real scandal in my view is that school administrators appeased Judge Hornstine for far too many years. He is known as a bully and was unrelenting is pushing for excessive advantages for both his very talented children. The school administrators were wrong to give in but they did approve all the IEPs etc. and now they do look very bad. But no one looks good here. I repeat my earlier view that this is a story full of distasteful to awful people.

--posted by DM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 11:09 am EDT

What are the damages worth in this case? Let's assume that the school was responsible for a hostile environment in not doing enough to combat student animosity toward Blair and, as a result, she couldn't attend graduation. She missed a "once-in-a-lifetime" event but what is that worth? Did she attend other school "once in a lifetime"events, such as the prom and pep rallies and homecoming? She attended the senior trip and maybe other school events. I just don't think graduation is worth millions but it is worth something. Also, could the school administration done much to improve public opinion of Blair when she had done so much to harm her own reputation?

--posted by DM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 11:15 am EDT

"Most costly intelligence mistake: Misreading the clutter prior to 9-11, and the obvious planning that became so clear in the aftermath. 3000 paid the price in one fell swoop, for what we missed.

Relevance to Blair Hornstine's mistake: obvious, one cost trillions, killed millions, and destroyed much of the world. One cost trillions and gave birth to the most wealthy company on earth, and the arguably most powerful software vender the world will ever know. One opened the eyes of the average Joe to the dangers of the world, and the anger it holds for our benevolent country. And one points out that no matter what the cost, no matter what the loss, the bottom line is that in America we don't like a whinner, and Blair is seen as one, but it doesn't justify the crucification that is being subjectively administered to her. She is a child, smart as hell, but a child none the less, are we so jaded as to let this mistake determine the outcome of her life, or will we move beyond it, and help her up to her final destiny?

If we don't, then we become the prognasticators of the next great mistake, and that is of judging others unworthy, whilst we arrogantly fail to judge ourselves.

That would be the greatest shame.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 2:14 am EDT "

AMEN! THIS GENTLEMAN KNOWS WHAT HE IS SPEAKING ABOUT!



"What a sad story!! There are no heros or heroines here....
I would say "go for it folks," but what an incredible waste of time, talent, and money.

For Mrs. M. M.: Do you think for one minute that anyone buys the proposition that BH is "fighting for the underprivileged"? How condescending! Give it up.

--posted by Dismayed @ Wednesday"

YOU ARE SADLY CORRECT IN THE TWO SENTENCES ABOOVE BUT THEN YOU SIDETRACT...CONDESCENDING MEANS PATRONIZING; PATRONIZING MEANS PROVIDE AID OR SUPPORT. I WILL NOT, WILL NOT, WILL NOT GIVE UP VERACIOUSNESS IN WHAT I BELIEVE IS AN INJUSTICE TO ANOTHER HUMAN BEING. MISS H. WILL NOT GIVE UP INEQUITIES DESPITE THE UNFAIR REPUTATION SHE HAS ACQUIRED.

). Mrs. MM seems to be preaching an "eye for an eye" (Old Testament) philosophy (I disagree). Mrs. MM basically believes Moorestown deserves what they got (a lawsuit)...
--posted by Dismayed @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 8:41 am EDT

I DO BELIEVE MOORESTOWN IS AND WILL GET WHAT IT DESERVES. INSTEAD OF TRYING TO CALM A STORM, THE UNHOLY CITIZENS OF THIS COMMUNITY FOSTERED THE LIES, GOSSIPS, ETC. INSTEAD OF PUTTING AN END TO THIS SITUATION, THE SCHOOL, ITS BOARD OF EDUCATION AND ADMINISTRATORS CONTINUED TO FOSTER THE CLIMATE. THEY EASILY COULD HAVE COOLED THE SITUATION. THEY NOURISHED THE SITUATION FOR FOUR YEARS, AND THEN TRIED TO STARVE IT OUT. THEY HOLD MORE THAN 50% OF THE RESPONSIBILITY.



12? 16? blame my nitpicking tendencies.

--posted by lurking @ Wednesday

S I X T E E N (16) NOW WHAT WILL YOU FIND WRONG WITH THAT?

"And now that you are leaving to go to Boston...

there is no way that she could be able to satisfy the physical fitness portion of the Presidential award that she won,
--posted by glad my parents aren't from moorestown "

WHERE DO YOU PEOPLE GET SUCH RUBBISH INFORMATION? THEY ARE MOVING TO BOSTON? NO WAY! THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS I POST ON HERE. IT TROUBLES ME GREATLY TO SEE SUCH MISINFORMATION.

AN WHERE DID YOU GET YOUR INFO ABOUT THE PHYSICIAL FITNESS PORTION OF THE PRESIDENTIAL AWARD? DO ALL DISABLED PEOPLE HAVE TO COMPETE IN A RACE? ARE DISABLED PEOPLE ALLOWED TO COMPLETE PHYSICIAL FITNESS IN ANY WAY THEY ARE ABLE? ARE DISABLED AND NON-DISABLED PEOPLE ALLOWED TO PERFORM PHYSICIAL ACTIVITY OVER A PERIOD OF TIME? YOU DON'T HAVE TO LIKE MISS H. OR THE SITUATION, BUT PLEASE DON'T ADD INSULT TO INJURY BY MAKING UP STORIES.

P.S. THIS ITEM WAS DISCUSSED WEEKS AGO. SCROLL ALL THE WAY UP.

"If the parties don't settle, Judge Wolfson will not determine damages. This will have to go to a jury which will be expensive and far more problematic for the Hornstines, not to mention what the process will do to a young woman with health problems exacerbated by stress. I suspect that the insurance company will urge a settlement and though the Hornstines will not get the millions, they will probably get something just to go away. I think it is most unfortunate that a few awful people in Moorestown violated the Hornstine home and threatened their safety. But most of the people in the town wish these people no harm. The real scandal in my view is that school administrators appeased Judge Hornstine for far too many years. He is known as a bully and was unrelenting is pushing for excessive advantages for both his very talented children.
--posted by DM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 11:09 am EDT"



YOU MAKE SOME JUST POINTS. HOWEVER, AGAIN, YOU AND I ARE JOSTLING SOME POINTS OF 'LAW.' SETTLEMENT TALKS ARE BEING ENCOURAGED BUT NOT WORKING. THE SCHOOL BOARD PRESIDENT STATED LAST WEEK IN THE NEWSPAPER THAT THEY (THE SCHOOL BOARD)WERE AGAIN LOOKING INTO MISS H.'S WORKS SO THAT THEY MIGHT BE LET OFF THE HOOK SOMEWHAT FINANCIALLY IF THEY CAN FIND SOME IRREGULARITIES IN HER SCHOOL WORK. SO FAR, NOTHING. SO FAR, NOTHING SETTLED.

YOU SEEM ASSURED THAT THE DAMAGES OF THIS HEARING WILL BE SETTLED BY A JURY. I AM NOT AS POSITIVE AS YOU. I DO BELIEVE THAT JUDGE WOLFSON WHO IS IN CHARGE OF THIS CASE WILL DETERMINE THE DAMAGES IF THE TWO PARTIES DO NOT COME TO A SETTLEMENT. THAT HEARING WILL PROBABLY BE IN AUGUST 2004.

I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH YOU AGAIN ABOUT THE FEW AWFUL PEOPLE IN THIS TOWN. THE FEW AWFUL PEOPLE ARE THE ONES WHO DID THE PHYSICIAL DAMAGE TO THE HORNSTINE HOME. THE BALANCE OF THE RESIDENTS OF MOORESTOWN ARE ALMOST AS AWFUL. I THINK CAL PROF HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD WITH HIS POST "An early poster said that her critics suffer schadenfreude, the malicious glee we feel when those above us suffer misfortune. I agree, noting that our delight in the "feet of clay" of high achievers is because their downfall makes us less anxious about our own excesses and failings. Hornstine's plummet means that we were right in not working so addiduously for success, AND now there's one fewer person above us and making us feel anxious about our own status. So we feel good at her problems." I THINK THE JEALOUS OVERZEALOUS COMMUNITY WERE TOO CAUGHT UP INTO THEIR OWN 'WORLD' AND IGNORED THEIR CHILDREN. NOW, IF MISS H. IS UNSUCCESSFUL, THE GUILT ON THEIR SHOULDERS IS LESSENED.

"Also, could the school administration done much to improve public opinion of Blair when she had done so much to harm her own reputation?

--posted by DM "

I REPEAT WHAT I SAID ABOVE. SURE THE SCHOOL COULD HAVE DONE SO MUCH TO IMPROVE THE SCHOOL SITUATION. IT THEN WOULD HAVE TRICKLED BACK INTO THE COMMUNITY. THE SCHOOL VERY PASSIVELY encouraged PEACE IN THE SCHOOL AND AT GRADUATION. IF JUDGE HORNSTINE IS/WAS A BULLY, THEY HAD FOUR YEARS TO STYMIE HIM. THE SUPERINTENDENT DID NOT HAVE TO BULLDOZE THIS CHILD AFTER A COMPLAINT FROM DR.SHANGOLD (THE MIRKIN CHILD'S MOTHER). KADRI NEEDED TO GET HIS FEET WET IN THE SCHOOL BEFORE HE BECAME THE NEW BULLY.


MY DISCLAIMER: If there are typos or places that I did not properly post quote marks, it is in error. I do not intentionally quote someone without giving them full credit for their thoughts.

--posted by MRS. M.M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 12:46 pm EDT

" BH and MHS were made for each other. "

That is probably why Judge Hornstine decided to live in Moorestown in the first place.

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 9:03 am EDT


And you, Motor mouth. why do you live there.

--posted by John T. Wright, Jr. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 13:01 pm EDT

STOP SHOUTING!!!

--posted by Not Mrs. MM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 13:01 pm EDT

"*bzzt* thank you for playing MRS. M.M. we've got a few consolation prizes for you. johnny, tell her what she's won! onto our next round ..."

--posted by Not Mrs. MM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 13:06 pm EDT

Cal prof's comments are interesting but Moorestown is a community that honors academic achievement. Ken Mirkin is a very high achiever as well. I found a somewhat anti-intellectual aspect to the community and though many proclaim to care deeply about academics, they strike me as more interested in the consumer aspects of achievement and not learning for its own sake. I don't see the Hornstines as outside this group. But you are right to assert that Mirkin/Shangold were petty and too focussed on the same trivial things as the Hornstines and yet they come out looking noble, which is not exactly fair. As to challenging the Hornstines for years, I wonder if the former Superintendent had a very different style when handling overly assertive and combative parents. Kadri may have inherited a bad situation and in hindsight, would have done better to listen to suggestions for change but not tried to change the rules in the middle of the game which hardly seems fair. As I said earlier, I just don't see that there is a "Truth" in this and you are so adamant about who the good guys are. Will you at least acknowledge that no one appears terribly honorable?

--posted by DM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 13:08 pm EDT

My last comments were directed to Mrs. MM. I will try to find authority on who determines damages in NJ. While I was confused weeks ago about the state/federal court issue, I now see I was wrong and Wolfson can hear this but she will apply the NJ law on discrimination which allows punitive damages. The case law I found did speak of juries determining damages but perhaps the parties can agree to let the judge decide. This is not likely here since Wolfson came down hard on Kadri et al. and I think the district would want to distance themselves from Wolfson. Anyone who can answer the jury question, please jump in.

--posted by DM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 13:24 pm EDT

"And now that you are leaving to go to Boston...

there is no way that she could be able to satisfy the physical fitness portion of the Presidential award that she won,
--posted by glad my parents aren't from moorestown "

WHERE DO YOU PEOPLE GET SUCH RUBBISH INFORMATION? THEY ARE MOVING TO BOSTON? NO WAY! THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS I POST ON HERE. IT TROUBLES ME GREATLY TO SEE SUCH MISINFORMATION.

AN WHERE DID YOU GET YOUR INFO ABOUT THE PHYSICIAL FITNESS PORTION OF THE PRESIDENTIAL AWARD? DO ALL DISABLED PEOPLE HAVE TO COMPETE IN A RACE? ARE DISABLED PEOPLE ALLOWED TO COMPLETE PHYSICIAL FITNESS IN ANY WAY THEY ARE ABLE? ARE DISABLED AND NON-DISABLED PEOPLE ALLOWED TO PERFORM PHYSICIAL ACTIVITY OVER A PERIOD OF TIME? YOU DON'T HAVE TO LIKE MISS H. OR THE SITUATION, BUT PLEASE DON'T ADD INSULT TO INJURY BY MAKING UP STORIES.

P.S. THIS ITEM WAS DISCUSSED WEEKS AGO. SCROLL ALL THE WAY UP.

--posted by MRS. M.M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 12:46 pm EDT

Mrs. MM,

Well, here is where I got my rubish from http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/852lodkv.asp If it is rubish, then I am sorry. Forgive me for assuming that he is moving to Boston when apparently he is going to be an adjunct there. I couldn't handle the commute while doing a ton of community service in my daughter's name. This article also mentions the amount of time that Blair had to put into physical fitness for the award. I do not make up stories. I just make opinions based on fact. If these are not facts, tell the Hornstines to sue the person who published them. You are correct, I do not like the entire situation. I feel that their family has made themselves out to be manipulative, vindictive, shallow, and ballsy. You may have some long-standing relationship with them or are related in some way. However, you can't argue with the fact that if one weren't privy to all of the "inside sources" sources that you are, than they would feel that something fishy is going on.

P.S. I know that this topic was discussed in the past, I was the one talking about it with you. I still feel that you are mistaken. I feel that the little girl has cried wolf and is now being eaten.

--posted by glad my parents aren't from moorestown @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 13:24 pm EDT

I would agree with you that almost no one appears honorable. As FAR AS SCHOOLWORK, I am ADAMANT that Miss H. is honorable. I know you and I will probably disagree. Children are children and are led by their environment. Miss H. only sees that her brother, parents, etc. are well educated and successful. A child might smoke or drink, but it is probably behind the parents' back. When everything in one's home is focused on education, that is what a child sees. He/She does not study behind the parents' back. Does a child understand that a father is a bully? A child sees her parent as going to bat for her for a wrong. This child wouldn't look up and say, "it's okay Daddy, I'll take regular math and go to community college even though I can go to Harvard.

Don't forget that there is really a quiet third student in this group. The third possible Valedictorian is going to Harvard and was president of the class. His marks were a smidgen below Kenny's. There was less than a point separating all three. At one point Kadri said he wanted to make all three Valedictorians, but then backed off that, too. He seemed to only want Kenny. Why, we ask???? Was #2 parent louder than #1 or #3? Was there an ulterior motive? #3 is quiet and going on his way. His parents made no waves.

#3 and his parents are the most honorable.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 13:30 pm EDT

glad: Some of the printed info is incorrect. The parents may be ballsy, but the child is being eaten MOSTLY because she is disabled, which I know you find hard to believe. Possibly the parents had to be ballsy so that this child would not be thrown by the wayside as so many children are.

I had a friend who has a severely mentally handicapped child. The school system wanted him to be thrown into the pile and probably institutionalized. My friend has the "largest pair" and fought for this child. He has now graduated (or finished) high school and works as a dog groomer and lives somewhat independently. He certainly isn't in Harvard, but if this parent listened to the school system, he would probably be in a home of some sort.

Most successful people have to jump out of the crowd. Some do it one way, others another. That is why there is chocolate and vanilla. That is why there is Harvard and community college (don't jump on me by telling me wonderful community college stories, I know there are many of them - just want to make my point)

This little girl is being eaten but not because SHE cried wolf!

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 13:41 pm EDT

DM: Aren't the Student Privacy Act and the ADA both Federal laws?

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 13:43 pm EDT

Mrs. MM,
ADA is a federal law but as it relates to this matter, as I understand it, punitive and compensatory damages don't apply. They are only available under the part of the act that forbids discrimination in employment. I am not sure about the privacy act. Back to the jury determining damages: the jury is the finder of fact under the common law tradition. I think the jury is responsible to decide what the relevant facts are, and if, after the judge insturcts them on the law, if there has been a violation. If the plaintiff has been injured, the jury then decides the extent of the injuries and the value in monetary terms. The judge can challenge the jury's determination regarding the damages if he/she finds them excessive.

--posted by DM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 13:54 pm EDT

I just wanted to say that I learned a lot here about the way different people from different demographics think about this topic and education as a whole. I am going to permanently remove myself from this blog because I need to. Mrs. MM, I hope you are correct in that Blair will be a very wealthy and successful person a few years down the road. I just hope that you, being so close to her, and her family can teach her the right way to do things. You are mistaken if you think that people who don't eat sleep and breathe education in the home ultimately end up in a community college. Like I said before, I am the only one on either side of my family as far back as I can see, that went to college. I am now enrolled in a master's program at a very very good school. And to top it all off, my parents have never even looked at a FAFSA. So I take your comments to heart and I resent them. I also know that I was correct (if you scroll way up) when I said that I knew someone just like you. You have proved time and time again that you are indeed, that type of person that I know very well. The sad part of it all, is that you don't even know that you are who you are, just as the Hornstines don't know how aweful they look. So, goodbye and I really hope that you realize that not many people agree with you, because not everyone can stomach being "that person". I may never be as rich or assmart as Blair as long as I live. But at least I have friends, made MY OWN LIFE FOR MYSELF, and am very happy in my life. It may sound rude, but if you and the Hornstines think that suing a school for millions, going to a prestigious university, having no friends outside your family, and dying a shrewd, lonely person are the ingredients for a happy life, than I hope she falls flat on her face - for her own sake.
Rise up Blair!
Tell you father to go F*CK OFF!
Go to a great school!
Make some friends!
Meet a great guy!
Go to some parties!
Try some pot!
Live you own life!
Realize that life is so much more than what you have been taught!

Realize that almost no song every written about love or success involves suing and having no friends.

It's been fun.

--posted by glad my parents aren't from moorestown @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 14:01 pm EDT

Mrs. MM,

One additional point - The NJ Law Against Discrimination does apply here and does provide for compensatory and punitive damages and attorney's fees. Most of the published cases deal with employment discrimination but the statute expressly covers school districts/administrators. The July 7, 2003 New Yorker has an article on chronic fatigue by Laura Hillenbrand, author of Seabiscuit. HIllenbrand suffers from CFS. THis is just informational. I have no opinion on whether Ms. Hornstine has this but accept that it is a baffling and awful disease. As to whether this is real for Ms. Hornstine, I couldn't say and really can't see how many can know with certainty that she is a malingerer. I do wonder if she is an abused child who was overly stressed by parental expectations and whether this contributed to her illness. But this is only speculation.

--posted by DM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 14:02 pm EDT

MaggotMouth, you are obviously very angry. I don't know why. Why don't you calm down? It does not reflect positively on you when you cannot even engage in a conversation without getting worked up.

Forget about Blair. She is a nobody.

Get on with your life...

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 14:06 pm EDT

Thanks Mrs. MM for reminding me of student #3. He is decent.

--posted by DM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 14:07 pm EDT

Mrs. MM,

There is a federal law protecting students' privacy.

--posted by DM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 14:13 pm EDT

"Therein, plaintiff stated that:
Mr. Kadri and other members of the Board of Education . . . made a concerted effort . . . to violate the claimant's legal rights under the following federal and state statutes and constitutional provisions among others: Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act, Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act, Civil Rights Act . . . and the guarantees to procedural due process and equal protection of the laws of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. "

DM: As I re-read the above, the laws that Miss H. sued were State and Federal. I "believe" that this went to Federal court, at the time, because they needed an "immediate injunction" before the Board of Ed meeting that was to occur a few days after this hearing. Something about waiting 6 months or so for a State hearing. Not sure.

Anyway, when a plaintiff sues, the plaintiff can request a jury OR a judge only hearing. I do not know why this wouldn't be the same,even though it started out as an "immediate injunction" hearing (no time for a Jury even if the law allowed for same. I know that the (damages)settlement conferences are being directed by Judge Wolfson. I can't imagine why she would change the direction of this case if it goes to trial by having a jury. I suppose it is a possibility, but if the parties did not originally request one, I am not sure that a change of venue would be proper. I am only thinking out loud....I will look into it also.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 14:19 pm EDT

This has got to be the most entertainment I've seen in a long time!

Hey everyone,

I guess I should introduce myself before I post -my name is Matt -former high-school slacker here to tell you that IMHO that this debacle has become really ugly.

I will not bore you with the details of my life, but I'll certainly share a few in the hopes that all you hard-working high-school grads will see that you don't have to have the top GPA in your class to make something of yourself.

I am a second year MD/PhD student at an Ivy League medical school/grad school who took the long road to college. After earning a wholly unimpressive sub-3.0 GPA in high school I went into the Navy to train as a nuclear engineer. Not only did I get a great education (as well as a round-trip ticket to the first Persian Gulf War), but I also got the swift kick in the tail that I so desparately needed. I went to college after 6 years in the Navy and earned my BS in molecular biology and also got married (we now have 4 kids, 3 of them came along in college). I was able to go to school full time as an undergrad at UC San Diego (a solid public school) and still pull 40+ hours a week as a research associate to pay the bills. I got out with 2 publications in international scientific journals and earned a 3.98 GPA in the process (summa cum laude).

Enough of my life (you're probably already bored reading :) I guess that what I wanted to say was that it is AWESOME if you can get great grades, accolades, and other sundry awards- you name it. I have a number of classmates with these qualifications (and many *without*). However, I can also tell you that during my interviews for the Medical Scientist Training Program (and for subsequent medical school applicants I have interviewed for slots at my school), never once was I asked (nor did I ask) about academic accomplishments (well, I pretty much blew high school but they certainly didn't hold this against me). I was, however, asked about every other detail of my life -my family, my experiences in war, being a dad, you get the idea. These were also the questions I asked of applicants -I wanted to know about them and their life experiences; things that they treasured in themselves and in others.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is ALWAYS hope to do what you want to do in life even if you *don't* get valedictorian status. One of the questions I heard asked of my friends many times was 'I have 300 other applicants with the exact same qualifications as you. Why should I go back to the admissions committee and tell them that *you* belong here?'

Well, thanks for reading, and I wish you all the best :) I absolutely love medical school and graduate school (and feel incredibly fortunate to be doing something so darned fun and still be able to come home at night and play with my kids ;)

matt

--posted by studydna @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 14:20 pm EDT

Mrs. MM,

Interesting comment that the Hornstines needed to protect their disabled daughter. Why then, were they so pushy with Adam's schedules as well? And when does a child become a young adult, capable of voicing her own views? Maybe student #3 decided not to pursue law suits and challenges to the valedictory status? Blair could have done the same.

--posted by DM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 14:22 pm EDT

Just as Blair was the #1 homeschooled student at MHS, Kenny was the #1 student of those who WENT TO CLASS.

Blair should not be the ONLY valedictorian, because no one else had access to her teachers, curriculum, or grading.

There should have been two valedictorians - one from the real track and one from the special ed track.

Unfortunately, Blair forfeited her role as valedictorian. All of that fuss for nothing...

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 14:36 pm EDT

Cretin - before Mrs. M.M. jumps all over you to say that Blair did not forfeit her role as valedictorian, let's remind her of the definition of the term (and repost "standing by the sidelines" post) -

valedictorian 1. n. (from (L)valedicere, to say farewell, vale farewell, dicere to say) the student usually of the highest rank in a graduating class who delivers the valedictory oration at the commencement exercises. 2. adj. of, relating to, or having the characteristics of a valedictory or valedictorian (the -- speech). (p 2529) Webster's Third New International Dictionary of The English Language Unabridged. Philip Babcock Gove, Ph.D, editor-in-chief. Springfield, Massachusetts.

Since Blair never showed up at graduation to give the valedictory address, she is technically can not claim the disctinction.

--posted by Not Mrs. MM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 14:41 pm EDT

Adam went to class; earned his marks, etc.

Another story: Many, many years ago, I went to see the Principal of the grade school that my child was in. I truly do not remember the reason for the visit. Anywho..we were talking. He, the principal, told me that he gets requests/demands/opinions thrust upon him daily fromt he Mothers of these grade school students. You see that most of these Mothers went to college, taught school FOR A YEAR OR MORE BEFORE before becoming stay at home Moms and thought that they knew how the school should work and what "johnny" should be taught, how his teacher should react, etc.

Yes, I have a point. We all want the best for our children. Some children do make it on their own; some like studydna many years later. These Mothers thought that their little bit of education gave them the authority and power to press for whatever they wanted. When you come to a school like Moorestown, it is in a very affluent community. Many, many of the citizens are college graduates. Many, many taught or teach school. Many, many want everything that "is coming" to them. Look at me, I am rich!!!! Status handbags, status cars, status universities! Competition is great. As I said before, the ones that roll over are rolled over. Some one gets a bigger boat or a little extra that gets him/her into a prestige school. Who do we blame? Society? Not to knock the non-Moorestowns, but they have hard working parents who do not have the time, inkling or knowledge to push.

When one of my kids was in school, he had not made the Honors courses that I THOUGHT he should qualify for. I found out that they only took so many students and my child was not one of them. They chose these kids based on the Iowa Basic Skills tests which measure general achievement, etc. It is a test that each of the schools take in most of the state. They compare one school against the other. There is supposedly "nothing to study for." Well, was I suprised when I found out that many of the kids in my child's class were being TUTORED for this test. That was just the beginning, Then came tutoring for the College entrance exams, a professional filing out a college app, going to a counselor to find out what you "need" to get into a certain college. It goes on and on in some areas.

This situation of "pushing" a child begins early on in lots of communities.

Again, Adam is a very, very bright young man. He is PhiBetaKappa at Harvard and graduated high in his class. He was accepted in lots of prestigious law schools. His "Daddy" did not do his work at Harvard. If he was "pushed" as you say at MHS, he must have been pushed the right way. He had no choice but to earn everything on his own at Harvard.

Blair WAS following in his footsteps and would have been JUST AS SUCCESSFUL if she went to Harvard.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 14:47 pm EDT

A judge directs the settlement discussion but the parties decide. In NJ, Rule 4:35 deals with trial by jury. Either "party may demand a trial by jury of any issue triable of right by a jury.......Waiver.. The failure of a party to serve a demand as requird by ...of this rule consitutes a waiver of trial by jury. Withdrawal of demand; consent. When trial by jury has been demanded as provided by this rule the trial of all issues so demanded shall be by jury, unless all parties or their attorneys, by written and filed stipulation or oral stipulation made in open court and entered on the record, consent to trial by the court without a jury, or unless the court on a party's or its own motion finds that a right of trial by jury of some or all of those issues does not exist."
The federal rules on this are found at 28 UScA sections 1861 et seq. - (too long to type). I think you are right about the TRO and a jury but if the parties can't agree on a settlement, I think many other things will come into play. Wolfson can hear the matter with a jury decided on the facts and damages. This could take years.

--posted by DM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 14:47 pm EDT

It could take years, but the info that has been filtered to me is about 13 months - next August. Probably, too soon to cool off this case. Hopefully long enough for Blair to get her life back on track.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 14:55 pm EDT

I have no doubt that Adam is smarter than Blair.

But then again, is that really saying much???

Do you have any proof that Blair would have been JUST AS SUCCESSFUL if she had gone to Harvard? I didn't think so.

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 14:56 pm EDT

"Hopefully long enough for Blair to get her life back on track."

Blair's life was never ON TRACK. Let's see if she can handle the real world. A world in which she does not get special treatment. That's what "on track" is.

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 14:58 pm EDT

Great post Matt. I have had a similar, but less impressive experience. The best thing for BH may well be four years in the Navy as an enlisted member. She surely would gain a different and much more realistic perspective on things.

While she still might have to explain to the character and fitness committee of whatever profession she seeks to enter her admitted plagiarism (the publication of Judge Wolfson's opinon insures that it will be around for her lifetime and easily found), at least she will be able to say that she is much more mature after the Navy (or Army, or Peace Corps, or whatever) experience.

I believe it was Pogo (gotta be careful here :)) who said: "We have met the enemy, and he is us." BH and the folks of Moorestown have met the enemy, and it is a sad thing.

--posted by Dismayed @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:00 pm EDT

Blair in the military? Somehow, I don't think she'd take well to following orders.

MaggotMouth, do you know if Blair has ever had a job? I'd be interested in knowing how she managed...

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:05 pm EDT

Cretin = Kenneth Mirkin's demon alter ego. Say goodby cretin. You are just the Mirkin kid's protector and family friend. Stop pretending. Both Kenneth and Blaire are smarter than you. You could not have gotten into harvard if Mr. Hornstine paid your way Very truly yours,
J.T. Wright, Jr.

--posted by John T. Wright, Jr. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:08 pm EDT

"hornstine -- verb, intransitive: 1. to accept no responsibility for one's own faults, mistakes, omissions or misdeeds; 2. to attribute all of one's misfortunes to the malice of others."

(http://www.ladysmaidjewels.com/Cblog/archives/000059.html)

--posted by Not Mrs. MM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:09 pm EDT

John T. Wright, Jr: Do you have any proof that both Kenneth and Blair are smarter than me? Thanks in advance.

P.S. I would not accept a single cent from Mr. Hornstine. And I would not choose to attend Harvard knowing that he works there.

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:15 pm EDT

"Not Mrs. MM --noun: 1. poor imitator; 2.mimic, ape, burlesque, mock, parady, travesty; 3. jealous, best form of flattery' 4. non-truthful."

--posted by The original and not plagiarized Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:18 pm EDT

Mrs. MM,
I can relate to what you say about educated parents and I believe that the level of "pushing" in communities like Moorestown is potentially damaging to young people. The parties involved here are just extreme examples of a common and unhealthy phenomenon in affluent communities with many well educated people. Sometimes the parents go too far to try to control all aspects of their childrens' lives and all facets of their educations.

--posted by DM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:20 pm EDT

How interesting. MaggotMouth is now *against* plagiarism? MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:22 pm EDT

Jeffrey Toobin, Legal Coorespondant, on CNN on May 8th.

"...this federal lawsuit, it seems to me, is absolutely ridiculous. Let's talk about some of the reasons why I think this story is ridiculous. First, don't make a federal case out of it. It's what parents teach their kids about all sorts of things. This is simply not a justified use of the federal court's limited time and resources. Second, no damages. What did she suffer here? She's the co- valedictorian. It is simply not something that the legal system should address, much less $2.7 million in punitive damages....And third, lack of gratitude. This school district, the taxpayers of this school district paid to have tutors sent to this girl's home, because she has a disability, which she's entitled to do, but it was a very expensive project for the school district. She shouldn't be suing....She's claiming that she's discriminated against because she's disabled. And I think it trivializes the very valuable Americans With Disabilities Act and that whole principle, because this is not what it's about. It's about keeping people out of jobs, it's about depriving people of money damages. I mean, that's the kind of thing the ADA was passed to correct. This is trivia and nonsense and it should be thrown out....she ought to do her lessons in school, not in court."

(http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0305/08/ltm.10.html)

--posted by cambridgema @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:23 pm EDT

Cambridgema: The post from Jeff Toobin has been posted previously. He, too, is entitled to an opinion.

DM: All we can do is hope for the future. This younger generation, "they say" will be the first one that is not more successful monetarily than the prior one. Is it because of us? Is it because of the world? Sure do not know. I do know that our grandparents "screwed" up our parents in some way, our parents did the same to us, we followed suit with our children. Hopefully, this present young generation will have learned something and our grandchildren will be the best! You know there is not a single child that has a Brady bunch or "normal" existence. There is always some "problem" in a household: both parents work too hard, not enough money, too much money, alcoholic parent, not home enough, divorce, on and on. The perfect family does not exist. Hopefully, we have all instilled some values (including education) in our children. Hopefully, some day we won't be wearing status bags (me, too), sun glasses, cars, etc.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:33 pm EDT

DM; Your post at 15:20 re pushing parents, etc. is a main reason that I believe in Blair Hornstine. I do believe she is smart, very smart and disabled. I do understand that she plagiarized in the Courier Post. I do believe she is not to blame. She only went where she was taught to go.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:38 pm EDT

correction: I do believe she is not to blame FOR HER MHS PROBLEMS.(not the plagiarism, although I do think that the editors have some responsibility)

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:40 pm EDT

Yes...I was the one who posted Jeff Toobin's comments. I still think he summarizes the lawsuit situation well.

--posted by cambridgema @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:41 pm EDT

Blair may be smart, but she's no genius. Very smart would be a stretch. You can't call everyone very smart. The phrase then becomes meaningless.

Blair probably does believe that she is disabled. Little does she realize that EVERYONE is tired. Unlike Blair, normal people either go to school or have jobs. Normal people don't get special treatment. But her parents probably told her that yawning is a symptom of her disability. That wanting to take a nap means that she is special. My guess is that Blair is no more tired than the average person. She has just been told that she is for the past 18 years. If you're told something enough times, chances are you will begin to believe it.

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:47 pm EDT

Cretin: What's your CPK score? That is Creatine Phosphokinase? If you are in the normal range which most of us are, we cannot complain about being lethargic or in pain.

By the way, Blair has only been ill for about 4 years.

Yawning is what a lot of imposter posters make me do.

It is true. You are an acquaintance/friend/neighbor of the Mirkin/Shangold family.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:53 pm EDT

You wish it were true. So do I. Unfortunately, it isn't.

Nice try, though.

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 15:55 pm EDT

Cretin: I gave you some info for research. Are you using your computer so we can discuss CPK intelligently? I was hoping you would run to a search engine or a book and get this info. If we can have an intelligent discussion, you cannot be loped into the pile of imposter posters.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 16:02 pm EDT

M.M., what was Blair's CPK score?

And ANYONE can complain about being lethargic or in pain. No one has a monopoly over those feelings.

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 16:03 pm EDT

Invasion of Privacy...how could I reveal if I knew someone else's score?

My score is normal, but I am often very tired. My knees and back ache so that sometimes I can't move. My hands feel so week that I can barely hold a pen. And I am normal. Pain and lethargy can be suffered by anyone.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 16:20 pm EDT

If you won't reveal Blair's score, I will have to assume that it was also normal.

I agree that pain and lethargy can be suffered by anyone. But not everyone chooses to exploit these feelings for personal gain.

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 16:22 pm EDT

Oh, Cretin, exploiting? Who says that Miss H. is exploiting feelings for personal gain? That is just my point. You took some info that I gave you and made a new story.

I have no idea what Blair's CPK is? If I did, I couldn't or wouldn't divulge it.Anyway, what would be the point? You or anyone else could turn that score into a new story. If some one else anyone knew had a similar story, they could tell you that that person is in a wheel chair or that person is a lifeguard and nothing bothers him/her. What would be the point? Doesn't have any bearing on Miss Blair.

I know and from the bottom of my heart believe she suffers from a disability that entitles her to home schooling. I could stand on my head and spit nickels, and you will never believe it. So what's the point of arguing with you over it? Some people with more info than you and I (her doctors and the school doctors) believe she was entitled to IEP at home. That's a fact! You think with your doctor's knowledge that she is exploiting the system. There is no doubt that you have your opinion. I just differ with you. I do believe I have somewhat more knowledge, but then again, I will never or will I try to convince you.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 16:43 pm EDT

Mrs. M.M. So if Blair has been "ill" for four years as you attest - how does one account for her physical activity - in gym class and related to her other activities - from freshman through the end of her junior year?

"Blair was enrolled in gym class in 9th and 10th grades (receiving an A and A+, respectively). Just weeks before the end of her junior year, she received a doctor's note waiving her from gym altogether. Still, an A+ for the class showed up on her transcript. Her father wanted the grade removed, and since she shouldn't have been graded for a waived class, it was. As Kadri explained to the court, an A+ in gym is worth only 4.3, and thus would have lowered her cumulative GPA, which was well above 4.3 by that point. "

"She and her family have never disclosed the exact nature of her disability; it is alternately referred to as 'chronic fatigue' and an 'immune system disorder.'....The cynics point to her activities. In 2000, Blair ran with the Olympic torch when it came through Philadelphia. The Inquirer reported in May that she works out at a local gym. She went on the senior class trip to Disney World this spring, and in the summers, she does intensive academic work. During previous summers she enrolled at the University of Pennsylvania and Cornell. Last summer she spent eight weeks at Stanford taking classes in Expository Writing (A-), Psychology (A), and Philosophy of Public Speaking (A). Interviewed in July 2002, she told a reporter from the Courier-Post, 'If I didn't lead a busy life, I'd be bored. And I hate being bored.' In June 2001, Blair was given the Congressional Award Gold Medal. To qualify for this honor, students must complete and document 400 hours of voluntary public service, 200 hours of personal development, 200 hours of physical fitness, and a 4-day exploration. Kelly Fanning, from the Congressional Awards office, says, 'For her physical fitness she did jogging, power-walking, and dance.' Moorestown High School students, it should be noted, take roughly 75 hours of Phys. Ed. class per year." (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/852lodkv.asp).

--posted by cambridgema @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 17:10 pm EDT

Cambridgema: I am going to attempt to answer you quickly, as I must leave. Your second paragraph...it goes on to explain that "Kadri explained to the court..." Please show me in the review of the court documents which are posted somewhere here where her PE classes were mentioned.

So, the family won't explain her exact disability to the public. Isn't Blair entitled to some privacy? Could it be that this disability might make kids "laugh" at her in school????? For example, a physicial disabiliy? Aren't some things personal? So, she went with the Olympic torch late at night once. What did she run? A mile? No way! Millions run this. They don't get to go far. She suffered for days after. Local gym? She goes there with her Mother who trains for one half hour at a time. Did Blair join her part of the time???? Did she actually work out????
Yes, she went to Disney with her class. If I can find it in the Phila. Inquirer some time back, her roommate said that she spent days recovering from it and could not do everything that others did while there. Look for this article. Yes, she went to Stanford. But while the others in her group, dorm, roommates went to San Francisco on weekends, etc. she stayed in her room.
Fact. She sure isn't bored. She does lead a busy life. Study,charity and rest. Oh yes, a walk with her Father or a trip to the spa with her Mother. 200 hours of physical fitness ---dance, etc. Over what period of time. 1/2 hour each day, each week, each year.

Since when is the Weekly Standard the epitome of truth and justice? I will never convince you either. I do not intend to. I know the truth. You do not need to believe. I do not care. I only post to set some people straight. I do set them straight, but they do not have to agree.

I did this so fast that there could be typos, etc. I will jave to check it later.

Here is the Judge's opinion: Read it. http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/fed/html/ca03-1953-1.html

I'll see if I can find the Inquirer article later tonight or tomorrow. Maybe someone here knows where it is.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 17:28 pm EDT

The second paragraph is not mine. You will note that it is in quotations and is what the Weekly Standard reported.

--posted by cambridgema @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 17:30 pm EDT

BTW - as I understand it, there is no transcript of the court proceedings available online - just the judge's opinion. I suspect that the Weekly Standard reporter reviewed the written transcript. It'd be nice to have access to the transcript and full proceedings online. They are public records and are available in hard copy at the Court House.

--posted by cambridgema @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 17:33 pm EDT

Mrs. MM. - I personally put far more weight on the reporting of the Weekly Standard (and other publications covering the Blair Hornstine affair, like Newsweek) than I do in your representation of the situation.

--posted by cambridgema @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 17:36 pm EDT

Regarding book and movie deals. Almost all students from junior high, high school to college as well as non-students in the country can recite Blair's story from just about every aspect (minus Blair's). No need for Hollywood to contact Blair nor anyone from her camp to make a movie based on her.

--posted by instant speed - just add water @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 22:09 pm EDT

Mrs. M.M. – you need to take into account that there are filings to the Court that were made by the plaintiff (Blair), the defendants (Kadri and the School Board), and other interested parties (like Kenneth Mirkin). As well, there might have been depositions taken before the hearing. The Court did host a teleconference on May 6, 2003 with the parties involved. I’m confident that reporters have reviewed a transcript of that conference cal,l along with the transcripts of all other proceeding’s inside and outside the Court session held in the courtroom. (http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/fed/html/ca03-1953-1.html#Footref5).

There is some indication that there might have been testimony even before the court hearing. Note Footnote 1 in the Judge’s Opinion: “Footnote: 1 [Kenneth Mirkin]'s transcript was submitted under seal to protect his privacy interests. (http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/fed/html/ca03-1953-1.html#Footref1).

BTW – some interesting points to consider from the Judge’s Opinion.

Blair attempted to seek redress for “invasion of privacy” and the Court denied such…”Footnote 5: Plaintiff has also brought an invasion of privacy claim under the Family Education Rights and Privacy Act, 20 U.S.C. § 1232g. The Supreme Court has held, however, that there is no private right of action under this Act. See Gonzaga Univ. v. Doe, 536 U.S. 273, 290 (2002). Therefore, this claim will not be considered…” (http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/fed/html/ca03-1953-1.html#Footref5).

It is also interesting to note that Blair was claiming “defamation, breach of contract, [and] violation of…non- disclosure provisions” and again the Court ruled against her: “…based on the parties' briefing and comments in a teleconference held on May 6, 2003, the Court does not construe paragraph 23 of Count One in plaintiff's complaint to set forth causes of action based on defamation, breach of contract, or violation of the non- disclosure provisions of N.J.A.C. 6A:14-1.1 - 6A:14 App. E.” (http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/fed/html/ca03-1953-1.html#Footref5).

The Judge puts in well: “It is unfortunate that the burdens of competition imposed on these students by parents and the school community have further fanned the flames of this controversy.” (http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/fed/html/ca03-1953-1.html#Footref16).

Does anyone know if Kadri and the school system have appealed this ruling?

And … it appears that the Judge and her court – which ruled for the purpose of a Temporary Restraining Order - will not be hearing the claims for damages: “Your discrimination claims pursuant to Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act . . . appear more appropriate for . . . a civil action in a court of appropriate jurisdiction. Adjudication of such claims, and awarding of injunctive relief such as that sought in this matter, are not appropriate for a due process hearing.” (http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/fed/html/ca03-1953-1.html).

--posted by cambridgem @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 22:25 pm EDT

Hmmm...since the district court ruled against any "invasion of privacy" claim by Blair, I suspect that in preparing to defend himself and themselves, Kadri and the School Board will review all of Blair's medical records and have physicians examine Blair so that they can act as "expert witnesses" regarding her purported "disability".

--posted by cambridgema @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 22:32 pm EDT

General information regarding the Moorestown school district can be found at www.southjerseynews.com/dayinthelife/moorestown/education.html. The site contains links to other articles about the demographics, history, and culture of the community. Although several years old, the articles suggest a citizenry more circumspect than that reflected in some of the reader comments. Additional information can be found at links located at www.moorestown.com.

--posted by TM @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 23:35 pm EDT

Mrs MM:

The court did not rule against Kadri and the School Board, but merely placed a Temporary Restraining Order (TRO), preventing them from naming co-valedictorians. The judge did not make any ruling...and is indicating that the Hornstines must take their claims forward to another court. Whether or not Kadri and the School Board can be held accountable for "discrimination" - and thus any potential damages - has yet to be determined not in the District Court, but "in a court of appropriate jurisdiction."(http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/fed/html/ca03-1953-1.html). No "guilt" has yet been established. No "findings of damages" has been determined. That is all in the future.

My advise would be for the Hornstines to drop their claim. If they want to go ahead with their claim . Otherwise they will be responsible for putting Blair up for intense scrutiny - and, possibly, resulting in findings that may reveal facts which could subject Blair to more angst ... and possibly even destroy her academic standing, her personal integrity and her future happiness.

--posted by cambridgema @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 23:35 pm EDT

[If they go ahead with their claim, they will be responsible for ... ]

--posted by cambridgema @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 23:37 pm EDT

There will be no appeal. The school board has nothing to appeal. If you read the opinion correctly, the school board got hit over the head. If you read the transcript, you will find that the lawyer for the school board was so incompetant that it was funny.

The school board president this past week said that they were again investigating Miss H.'s work to look for anything wrong so that their (the School Board) could possibly lose less money.

THE MOORESTOWN BOARD OF EDUCATION WILL PAY BLAIR HORNSTINE FOR THE TROUBLE IT CAUSED HER...either by settling this year or trial next.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 0:22 am EDT

Mrs MM:

Can you kindly provide us with access to any and all transcripts of depositions, conference calls and court hearings to which you profess to have access? The judge's "opinion" is just that - an opinion. She merely placed a Temporary Restraining Order on the School, preventing them from naming co-valedictorians. The claim for discrimination - and for damages - by the Hornstines is a separate matter - and will be heard in the future. The Hornstines may win their claim; they may lose their claim. And if they win their claim, does that automatically mean they will be awarded damages? Who knows. That'll be up to a presiding judge and/or jury to determine.

--posted by cambridgema @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 0:40 am EDT

The judge stated that she felt comfortable in placing a Temporary Restraining Order (note - it is Temporary ... and not Permanent) on the School from naming co-valedictorians because it was her opinion that the Hornstine's LIKELY have a claim based on discrimination. Likely!!!

The judge denied the Hornstines the Temporary Restraining Order based on any claims of "invasion of privacy", "defamation", "breach of contract", etc.

It is still up to another court proceeding to actually determine if Kadri and the School discriminated against Blair - and whether or not she is eligible for any damages.

Please - go back and read the judge's O-P-I-N-I-O-N again yourself.

--posted by cambridgema @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 0:46 am EDT

Mrs MM -

It's time for me to ignore you and your posts from this point forward. I will base my opinions on more credible sources - actual court papers, news articles and analysis - and other more reasoned and less biased posts on this blog.

Good luck and I wish you peace and happiness.

--posted by cambridgema @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 0:51 am EDT

HUGrad: I have it on some pretty good authority that Harvard CAN be sued in this situation. They did not CYA with the publication in the Crimson of the rescinding of her admission. You see, the quote from the paper "...according to a source involved with the decision.". was not an official one, and this article was published without officially notifying Ms. H. either before, the day of or the day after of the revoking of her admission (nor possibly as of this date). That is clearly an invasion of her privacy.
Also, it not the "proper" way things are handled. Would Harvard do something that is not "proper?" Can you imagine a family being notified of their soldier/son's death in Iraq by reading it on the front page of the local newspaper???? It has happened, but the US government, I think, cannot be sued. If it would happen in a local car accident, for instance, and the police tell the papers not to release names and they do, the remedy can be financially costly.


--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 16:52 pm EDT

Something along these lines has probably already been posted, but yes, you can sue anybody (including the Federal Government) for just about anything. But the Hornstines have absolutely no case in this matter. No official statement from Harvard has ever (to my knowledge) been made to the effect of "her admission has been rescinded," and since the Crimson is an independent, student-run newspaper (unlike, for example, the Gazette) there is no case against the University itself. Even the Crimson should be protected via First Amendment rights.

If they do bring some sort of spurious suit against the University, Harvard's army of elite lawyers will likely have a field day tearing apart the prosecution. They get MUCH more serious cases than this thrown at them almost every day, and they come out smelling like roses. Everyone wants a piece of the $26 billion pie...

Harvard has hundreds of years of public-relations experience and they handled this impeccably, as they usually do. I can't say I always support them, but they did the right thing here.

--posted by HUGrad @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 1:13 am EDT

"Hornstine’s case — and her request for damages - remains in litigation pending either a settlement or a jury trial. The two parties will meet before a judge August 13 to discuss further proceedings..." (http://www.thecrimson.harvard.edu/today/article348498.html)

“The trial phase of Blair's lawsuit will unfold slowly over the coming months…” (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/852lodkv.asp).

--posted by cambridgema @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 1:14 am EDT

"When the rest of the children of Moorestown suffer because programs are cut,and classes are overrun with too many students, let the parents take a little heat and see what THEY caused."

I really pray that this woman is not, as it has been surmised, a teacher at /any/ school. That someone could so gleefully savor the idea of children suffering in any way is deplorable. To look forward to children she supposedly has the responsibility to teach, having to suffer educationally simpy so she can say a childish 'Ha Ha' boggles the mind.

It's clear you believe Blair was treated horribly. And your answer to that is to spread the pain around. Is that what you teach your children? Two wrongs suddenly make a right?

Your world is a very sad, sad place.

--posted by Really Disgusted with MM @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 1:21 am EDT

It's interesting to note that Blair's brother Adam - recent Harvard graduate and soon to enter Harvard Law - is a proponent of First Admendment rights, as indicated in his personal profile in a USA Today article: "Adam Hornstine....Legal work includes advocacy for....First Amendment rights..." (http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2003-02-12-collegians-second-team_x.htm)

HUGrad - you made a very good point earlier that the party who leaked the info to the Crimson could easily be someone from the Hornstine camp. We'll never know. The Crimson reporters can protect their source by way of the First Admendment. Also, the Crimson is not an "agent" of the Univeristy, but is incorporated as a student-run newspaper. Harvard itself has made no official statement about Blair's admissions being rescinded. The university's official newspaper - The Gazette (http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/index.html) - has had no coverage of the Blair Hornstine affair.

--posted by cambridgema @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 1:25 am EDT

[Amendment]

--posted by cambridgema @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 1:33 am EDT

cambridgema - you a grad? I was '98, Eliot House. Going back for grad school in the fall...

--posted by HUGrad @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 1:52 am EDT

Harvard can be sued for not protecting the confidentiality of its admission process, IF that confidentiality is implied in the contract of the admissions procedure. You might remember a few years ago when an admissions officer from one of the top Ivys (Yale?) broke into another university's (Princeton's?) online list of admissions acceptances. The Harvard culprit is not the shielded journalist, but rather the university officer who leaked the information. By analogy, I'd be in trouble if I told a news reporter that a student had been expelled. The same is true for a cop who leaks arrest information or a doctor who releases patient information. The damage here would be more tangible than in the valedictorian issue, because the rescinded acceptance is a public humiliation. However, because Blair's attorney verified the reversed acceptance almost immediately, the loss of confidentiality might be moot.

If the school district is found liable in the valedictorian issue, there will be damages or a settlement. The district will have to raise taxes a bit, unless it has liability insurance. These payments are very common, whenever a public official is found to have abused his/her office. Without these payments, there would be no way to compensate victims of public incompetence and malfeasance, unfair as it may seem to the innocent taxpayer (who is the employer of the public official).

Isn't Moorestown an affluent district? The posts above allude to wealthy parents and luxurious homes. Moorestown is fortunate in having good public schools. In my city middle-class and wealthier families pay up to $16,000 a year to send their child to a safe, competent private school.

One ironic note: Isn't Judge Hornstine now presiding over the case of those four New Jersey high schoolers who were allegedly planning another murderous Columbine attack on their school? It's odd to think that on the job he oversees a trial of vicious teenagers, then goes home to see other vicious or embittered teens vandalizing his home and threatening his daughter.

--posted by Calprof @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 2:11 am EDT

Everyone:

I've moved the set of comments from June 8 to July 7 to the following page:

http://www.tow.com/photogallery/20030607_blair/comments.shtml

This was done to increase the speed at which this page loads.

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 5:57 am EDT

CalProf...you said: "The Harvard culprit is not the shielded journalist, but rather the university officer who leaked the information."

We can not be certain that it was a Harvard official who was responsible for providing information to the Harvard Crimson's reporter. It could have been someone from the Hornstine side. "...the Harvard admissions office has rescinded her offer to attend Harvard in the fall, according to a source involved with the decision." (http://www.thecrimson.harvard.edu/today/article348498.html). I suspect it would be difficult to establish "the culprit".

Regarding the infamous Princeton computer break in...

"According to the [Yale Daily News], Princeton officials used students' birth dates and Social Security numbers from their Princeton applications to log onto [Yale's admissions Web] site, which contained students' records, profiles, and extracurricular activities....Stephen LeMenager, an associate dean and director of admissions...[was placed]...on administrative leave." (http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/10792_1433731).

And, as reported last August ... "Princeton University will allow two admissions officials to remain at university despite lapses in judgment involving break-in to Yale University's computer system; everyone involved will be disciplined. Princeton University said yesterday that it planned to allow its two top admissions officials to remain at the university despite their lapses in judgment involving a break-in by admissions officials into Yale University's computer system. In announcing the findings, Princeton's president, Shirley M. Tilghman, said that Stephen E. LeMenager, the admissions official who first broke into a Yale Web site for college applicants, would be moved to another job at Princeton." (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F0071FF9355E0C778DDDA10894DA404482).

No one filed suit, No charges were brought against anyone.

HUGrad ... yes '89; Winthrop House.

--posted by cambridgema @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 7:42 am EDT

Far from being "vicious and embittered," the majority of Moorestown's recent high school graduates are away on vacation, working summer jobs, or preparing to attend college. Several weeks after graduation, they have better things to do than to vandalize the home of a sitting judge or terrorize a former classmate most will likely never see again.

--posted by TM @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 7:55 am EDT

Michael Smerconish | BLAIR GETS JOBBED, AGAIN
By Michael Smerconish
www.mastalk.com

EVERY dope who sat on his hands and seethed while the teacher's pet got the answer right is now exacting revenge by throwing spitballs at Blair Hornstine. Shamefully, Harvard is rewarding these idiots by revoking her college acceptance.

Blair deserves a break. Let's review.

She filed a lawsuit when she realized that the Moorestown school district, egged on by a bunch of South Jersey Gladys Kravitz types, was conspiring to deny her something she had earned - her claim to be the high school's sole valedictorian. Her suit earned her ridicule and scorn. Published reports say her house was egged and sprayed with graffiti. Death threats were received. And her disability was the subject of more urban legends than Area 51.

So fast and furious was the torrent of spite directed at Blair and her parents that it was initially hard to know the real deal. I confess to having dismissed Blair as a spoiled malingerer myself when the case first broke, but my view changed when a federal judge listened to the evidence and sorted out whether Moorestown should have more than one valedictorian.

U.S. District Judge Freda Wolfson pulled no punches in a lengthy opinion. She ruled that Blair earned the title and that the school district was wrong to assume that somehow her disability had given her an academic advantage over other students. Judge Wolfson wrote that despite the whispers in the community, the school district never disputed that disability:

"Regrettably, this issue has polarized the graduating class and the community most of whom are uninformed about the facts and the law. In light of that, I want to make clear that the evidence in this case has shown that Ms. Hornstine earned her distinction as the top student in her class in spite of, not because of, her disability."

That's about as clear a conclusion as could have been reached. Too bad more people haven't taken the time to read Judge Wolfson's opinion online at

lawlibrary. rutgers.edu/fed/html/ ca03-1953-1.html.

Instead, the cyberspace treatment of the controversy has been focused at www.petitionon

line.com/blairadm/petition.html.

That's where you can go if you want to read such sickness directed to Blair as:

"She's fugly..."

"I hope a drunk driver kills both her mother and father."

"I respect Harvard for having the courage to do what is right. They were and will always be the white trash from Wildwood."

These are the comments of just three of the close to 3,000 people who signed a petition encouraging Harvard to rescind its admission due to Blair's "petty, childish actions."

Unfortunately, beyond the suit, Blair gave her critics something legitimate to complain about.

Seems she published several stories for the Courier-Post while a student, albeit not as part of the school curriculum. The Courier-Post claims she "misused sources" in five stories she wrote. We're talking plagiarism.

Stupid stuff. Like when, the week of Thanksgiving 2002, she wrote a piece that lifted content from two of President Clinton's Thanksgiving proclamations.

Her explanation is that she cut and pasted her ideas and did not know that the newspaper articles required the "strict citation" found in a school assignment. "I am not a professional journalist. I was a 17-year-old with no experience in writing newspaper articles," she explained.

I will not defend her plagiarism - she should have known better. And if it turns out that she did likewise while in school, then she deserves Harvard's harsh treatment. But no one has said as much, and shy of such a finding, I see Harvard using the articles as a pretext for keeping an unpopular incoming freshman out of Cambridge.

If Blair were a suburban valedictorian with no disability and no lawsuit who was found to have quoted from a Bill Clinton Turkey Day address without attribution while writing in the local newspaper, would she have been shown the door? I say no way.

And yet that's what happened. Why? Because Harvard's view was jaded by the bad PR Blair attracted by filing a lawsuit - overlooking that the criticism was mean-spirited and unjustified, and that Blair was in the right.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--posted by I KNOW by Michael Smerconish @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 9:42 am EDT

I think that Bill in his post of Sunday, July 13 2003 (above) put Harvard's decision to rescind Blair's admission in perspective:

"Wouldn't you agree that IF Harvard decides to accept her despite her proof of plagiarism, this case can be used for future reference by students found guilty of the same crime? Absolutely. To let her in would be a bad precedent and may open the door to appeals to previous [terminal] actions, not to mention future cases."

Plagiarism is plagiarism ... whether in a school assignment or a more public forum like a newspaper.

--posted by cambridgema @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 12:26 pm EDT

Were a Harvard student to plagiarize others' works, in successive newspaper articles, or in classwork, they would be expelled. The difference is, if you weren't a classmate, nor a family member, you wouldn't hear about it, because the student wouldn't be a public figure.

--posted by MA reader @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 13:49 pm EDT

Mike:

Way to drive traffic to your own website.

You state: "If Blair were a suburban valedictorian with no disability and no lawsuit who was found to have quoted from a Bill Clinton Turkey Day address without attribution while writing in the local newspaper, would she have been shown the door? I say no way."

I quote from the Harvard College FAS Handbook (http://www.registrar.fas.harvard.edu/handbooks/student/chapter4/adboard.html):

"Occasionally candidates for admission make inaccurate or incomplete statements or submit false materials in connection with their applications. In most cases, these misrepresentations or omissions are discovered during the admission process and the application is rejected. If a misrepresentation or omission is discovered after a student has registered, or registered and completed courses, the offer of admission ordinarily will be rescinded, the course credit and grades will be revoked, and the student will be required to leave the College. If discovery occurs after a degree has been awarded, the offer of admission ordinarily will be rescinded, and the course credit, grades, and degree will be revoked. Such cases may be referred to the Committee on Admissions and Financial Aid rather than to the Administrative Board of Harvard College."

Harvard takes the academic crime of plagiarism quite seriously. It is a bit of a stretch to say that an otherwise qualified student (suburban, valedictorian, able-bodied, or otherwise) would certainly not be rejected on the basis of one documented incident of plagiarism. Certainly, if that student was shown to have plagiarized in five out of the six articles she had written for the newspaper (indicative of a pattern as opposed to a single careless mistake), that would weigh heavily on Harvard's decision. And the tone of her public explanation, which reads more as a paean to the academic value of footnotes, as opposed to an apology for representing other writers' thoughts and words as her own, could also have influenced the admissions board.

(Additionally, making a glaringly obvious error in your final words in the newspaper probably wouldn't impress Harvard much either.)

--posted by anonymous coward @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 14:40 pm EDT

I may have been wrong about the legality of Harvard's disclosing the name of a student whose admission they had rescinded. Harvard's own website includes a student handbook in which they use the apparently real names of students who have been disciplined by "Adboard," in sample cases including plagiarism, lying on placement career interviews, sexual assault, and misuse of computer accounts. Perhaps part of the students' contract allows the University to release their names in disciplinary cases. I know that at public universities, disciplinary actions are treated with great confidentiality.

I was curious about the typical penalty for academic dishonesty, the larger category into which plagiarism falls. At Harvard it appears to be a withdrawal for a year, with dismissal in extreme cases. My guess is that if Blair were an enrolled student, she would have gotten a withdrawal as punishment for any in-class plagiarism, but probably less if at all for extracurricular dishonesty. Admittees may have fewer rights than enrolled students under contract.

At public universities, the student would usually receive a warning for a first offense, along with a failing grade on that plagiarized assignment. (Because plagiarists often are already failing a course, the F grade is no punishment at all.) I was curious about Teddy Kennedy's offense at Harvard long ago; I read that he had another student take a Spanish exam for him, and received a withdrawal with reapplication privileges.

In Blair's case, I suspect that she knew she was borrowing too much, even for a newspaper teen column. Most plagiarism is evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Plagiarizing from a Supreme Court decision (where you want the exact language) or from a Presidential Thanksgiving message would not be as serious as plagiarizing the published essay on defense policies.
(Public speeches and documents are often themselves heavily borrowed from previous sources by speech-writers and jurist-scholars.)

Plagiarism is also a significant problem among professors, as they may borrow too heavily from standard descriptions and phrases covering the same events or phenomena. Punishment for plagiarist faculty can range from a mere scolding to being fired if untenured. If an applicant for a faculty position were found to have plagiarized in some non-scholarly capacity, such as a popular magazine article, there would be some controversy about whether the job invitation should be withdrawn.

Here's the Harvard student plagiarism website with sample cases:

www.college.harvard.edu/academic/ adboard/student_guide.pdf

--posted by Calprof @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 15:16 pm EDT

From the Harvard College Student Handbook...

"Students who, for whatever reason, submit work either not their own or without clear attribution to its sources will be subject to disciplinary action, and ordinarily required to withdraw from the College."

(http://www.registrar.fas.harvard.edu/handbooks/student/chapter2/academic_performance.html#preppaper)

--posted by cambridgema @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 15:42 pm EDT

Mrs M.M.,

If Blair had in fact decided in May not to attend Harvard, why did she not inform them? It would have been much more considerate on her part, and this whole embarrassing episode of Harvard rescinding her acceptance would have been avoided. Any public humiliation she has suffered as a result is her own fault.

--posted by Tom D @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 15:52 pm EDT

Another view on the Blair Hornstine issue:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/tobin.html

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 20:40 pm EDT

Let's all talk in about a week......

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 21:09 pm EDT

Here is another view; these are the type of columns that Adam, et al never seem to share.



http://www.americandaily.com/item/1401

--posted by W. T. Huston @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 21:15 pm EDT

If you ask me the school super, Kadri, is a villain in this, too.

If he felt that the girl’s grades were trumped up or tallied incorrectly he should have made an inquiry instead of trying some secretive, back door way to make her a “co-valedictorian” with the second place student.

Kadri hadn’t the guts to stand up for his convictions and force the issue. But at least he should have just let it go and changed the rules or tightened them for following school years. Instead he tried a feels good solution that just made it all worse.

--posted by Warner @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 21:18 pm EDT

Blair Hornstine's little bout of forgetting to cite sources is typical college student work. She got caught because she was in the public eye. Take a look at these two sites:

http://www.slothclub.org/pages/activity/japan/sevtour/sevbiography.htm (the original)

http://sanjoaquingreens.org/Young%20Environmentalist.htm (the plagiarized summary)

The writer of the plagiarized version did an International Baccalaureate (one step above AP) in high school and is in her college's honors program. She'll never suffer any consequences whatsoever. It's just the college student norm to cut-and-paste other people's work together so you can pad your resume. They laugh at us.

--posted by Cynic @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 21:38 pm EDT

Blair Hornstine's little bout of forgetting to cite sources is typical college student work. She got caught because she was in the public eye. Take a look at these two sites:

http://www.slothclub.org/pages/activity/japan/sevtour/sevbiography.htm (the original)

http://sanjoaquingreens.org/Young%20Environmentalist.htm (the plagiarized summary)

The writer of the plagiarized version did an International Baccalaureate (one step above AP) in high school and is in her college's honors program. She'll never suffer any consequences whatsoever. It's just the college student norm to cut-and-paste other people's work together so you can pad your resume. They laugh at us.

--posted by Cynic @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 21:38 pm EDT

W.H. Huston:

Thanks for posting the link to your “American Daily” article. You put it well… hitting the nail on the head:

“Miss Hornstine has a father that is one of those typical pushy types trying to force his overachieving child into achieving ever more and stopping at nothing, perhaps including taking advantage of obscure regulations, to "win" the brass ring probably as much for himself as for his daughter, Blair.” (http://www.americandaily.com/item/1401).

I hold Judge Hornstine responsbile for trying to “game the system”. His Pyrrhic victory came back to haunt him and his daughter.

I hope that Blair can move on; can find her own self, her own true passions. She’s obviously a bright and talented person (albeit one who has made some mistakes in her young life - like most young people do)… and has potential to do great things. Let’s hope that she weathers the current storm … and gets perspective and distance from the maelstrom of the current set of affairs.

As posted by “glad my parents aren't from Moorestown” on Wednesday, July 16:

“Rise up Blair!
Tell you father to go F*CK OFF!
Go to a great school!
Make some friends!
Meet a great guy!
Go to some parties!
Try some pot!
Live you own life!
Realize that life is so much more than what you have been taught!
Realize that almost no song every written about love or success involves suing and having no friends!”

--posted by cambridgema @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 21:40 pm EDT

Cynic:

Boy, am I confused! The summary at http://sanjoaquingreens.org/Young%20Environmentalist.htm clearly references the original summary at http://www.slothclub.org/pages/activity/japan/sevtour/sevbiography.htm .

There is a hyperlink at the bottom of the "sanjoaquingreens.org" page to the "slothclub.org" page with the descriptor: "Information found in Vanity Times February 2002 and www.slothclub.org." Am I missing something here?

--posted by cambridgema @ Thursday, July 17 2003, 21:48 pm EDT

Wait a minute. Blair did not make a "mistake," nor did she inadvertantly use material written by others. She know what she was doing. She tried to pass off the work of others as her own. She intended to do it, and she did - more than once.

I find it really difficult to have sympathy for the excuses others have posted to make it seem her stealing was not a big deal. It is a big deal, and her youth (she clearly knew better) is no excuse. What's done is done, and cannot be undone. Harvard had no real choice than to do as it did.

--posted by Dismayed @ Friday, July 18 2003, 0:27 am EDT

Dismayed, you speak as if you know Blair's thoughts, as if you were her, and know what her intention was. The use of the term mistake in relation to what in other circumstances would be considered a minor or even insignificant PUBLIC issue is common, as in "Your Honor, I made a mistake in judgement, I won't do it again" Or "Don't throw this persons life away over a mistake he won't make twice", ect.

None of us knows Blair's heart, and while her plagiaristic actions have resulted in her removal from the Harvard class of 2007, once more for the record, as it relates to her school work, it has no bearing.

Using the word mistake allows for the human aspect of this story to be expressed, disavowing the common depiction of a minor offense as a mistake leaves only criminal as a matter of description, and while you personally may find her actions to be so, neither law or society look at it in such a way. If they did, Ted Kennedy would be a convicted Felon, along with Martin Luther King, Jr. and numerous other well known plagiarists of our time.

Splitting hairs to demonize anybody is the root of all the negativity that surrounds this case, Blair split a hair on the Valedictory, and the town split hairs over her court victory, and prevailed through intimidation, threat, and rage. Comparing her actions, repulsive though they may be, to such criminal acts is not only wrong, it shows a complete lack of humanity on the part of such a position.

Sure, she plagiarized, she's paid for it with her Harvard Education, but it isn't a capitol offense, and frankly most prisoners are treated better behind bars than Blair has been in her own hometown.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Friday, July 18 2003, 1:19 am EDT

If Blair truly had a disability that prevented her from attending classes in high school, then how in the world would she have been able to attend classes at Harvard. Would she have hired the same cadre of tutors who assisted her to her A pluses in home-schooling? If so, then that is NOT the true college experience anyway. My daughter just completed her first year at Harvard and let me tell you, it was very rigourous. She loved every minute of it, and did exceptionally well for a freshman, but it was a nine month marathon!
And believe me, at Harvard NO ONE cares if you were valedictorian or not. In addition to being exceptional students they all bring something else very special to the table: athletes, artists, participants in community service, debaters, and any other number of extracurricular talents. It's Harvard for goodness sakes! And she lost that amazing opportunity to be a part of that community over something so trivial and selfish! It's really a shame. I wonder if any amount of therapy will ever help her get over this fiasco. Her life is certainly changed forever as a result of it. Even if she gets a few million from the school district (which is so greedy and selfish that it is beyond comprehension - particularly in light of her so-called interest in public service), it won't make her a happy camper. It will just cast more negative shadows in her life. She should drop the lawsuit, find a college that is suitable (ie: not hostile) and get on with her life.


AT

--posted by A.Teacher @ Friday, July 18 2003, 5:32 am EDT

S. DOUGLAS-SMITH: what to fail to mention in your defence of Blair Hornstine is her monetary suit. Maybe her community would be more supportive of her if she wasn't suing them for 2.7M dollars.

--posted by MonkeyBrains @ Friday, July 18 2003, 7:44 am EDT

Oh, for crying out loud, S. D-S. She did the act. She intended to use others' material. She has never denied that. She simply said that she couldn't figure out how to provide the attribution.

Her use of others' materials was deliberate. She had to go find the material, consider its usefulness for what she wanted to write, copy it, edit the material so that it was not a verbatim quote, paste it into her piece, and then publish it.

She couldn't figure out how to make appropriate attribution?? Come on! She doctored the material so that she could skate around making an exact quote. She did it multiple times. This from a really smart kid.

If you believe for a nano second that she really couldn't figure out how to give proper attribution, then I have a couple of bridges I'd like to sell you.

Is it your proposition that her "mistake" was not a mistake of execution, but a mistake of judgement? She made that "mistake" at least several times with respect to the articles she published.

I can't believe she didn't consult with Dad before sending out the articles. What did he advise? Or, did he make a "mistake" as well? Even if she didn't consult with Dad, she certainly should have known what she did was wrong. The fact that she doctored the material she used is indicative that she knew.

The fact that she never apologizes for her actions, but tries to explain them away says a lot. How stupid she must think the rest of us are!

Four years in the Navy would really straighten her young rear-end out. Go for it, Blair! Put some distance between yourself and this whole ugly scene, and use your considerable talents to live a fulfilled life and make a contribution to the world.

--posted by Dismayed @ Friday, July 18 2003, 8:18 am EDT

I can't decide which of you contributors is more perfect: The navy person, the Harvard egotists, the jealous ones or the ones with "stupid names," A few people here have intelligent thoughts. Some are fair, others are sympathetic and understanding, but the first ones I mentioned are downright foolish. They don't live in the real world.

And to you Harvard grads. Are you afraid that your diplomas will look less grand if this lady is admitted? Get off your high horse. Harvard has an excellent reputation as a college, but the students and graduates have a terrible reputation as far as egos, righteousness and looks. Keep putting this lady down and arguing with each other. You have come out of your holes to spew morality. Is that beer drinking and pot? You further verify my thoughts. Also let me know when you were crowned "perfection?"

--posted by A thought @ Friday, July 18 2003, 10:20 am EDT

Disamayed:

I agree with you that plagiarism is a big deal and Blair is responsible for her current predicament. Blair's public statement in the Courier Post(http://www.courierpostonline.com/static/st060303g.html) did indeed ring hollow - and she clearly did not own up or acknowledge responsibility for her egregious behavior. She needs to do so. Hopefully, her rejection from Harvard will provide her with the needed "wake-up call." She's clearly not getting the proper and appropriate message from her father or her attorneys who attempt to blame others for the situation - casting her as a persecuted "victim" awash in "hostile environments".

All-in-all, she has demonstrated a propensity for "making mistakes". Her "intelligence quotient" might be high, but her "emotional/social quotient" is sorely lacking.

She is paying a hefty price. I hope that she can come out of all of this for the better.

--posted by cambridgema @ Friday, July 18 2003, 10:24 am EDT

She will come out of it better - Stanford!

--posted by Thought @ Friday, July 18 2003, 10:28 am EDT

It's Harvard for goodness sakes!

--posted by A.teacher @ Friday, July 18 2003, 10:30 am EDT

Whoopee shit

--posted by a Thought @ Friday, July 18 2003, 10:32 am EDT

If some of you imbeciles, especially the Harvard one, hope "she can come out of this" or rise up, tell her father off, grow up and so on, then why shouldn't Harvard be the stepping stone for this. It would seem to me that Harvard, although not the psychological and sociological repairers of the world, should be more congruous to aiding their fellow man.

--posted by A thought @ Friday, July 18 2003, 10:44 am EDT

Yeah, but Harvard doesn't want to be sued in the process of rehabilitating Blair. Let the local community college handle her...

--posted by cretin @ Friday, July 18 2003, 10:58 am EDT

Where does or did CRETIN go to school? BCC? Rowan? Trenton? Monmouth? Rider? Temple? No school school after High School?

--posted by ?? @ Friday, July 18 2003, 11:25 am EDT

Are you feeling threatened?

--posted by cretin @ Friday, July 18 2003, 11:28 am EDT

Nope. Just assuming that you had no further education after high school. Or that you stayed "close to home."

--posted by ?? @ Friday, July 18 2003, 11:30 am EDT

Wrong on both counts. Nice try, though!

--posted by cretin @ Friday, July 18 2003, 11:32 am EDT

You are either not who you say you are a 20ish year old graduate from MHS or ashamed.

--posted by ?? @ Friday, July 18 2003, 11:44 am EDT

Huh? Could you please rephrase that in ENGLISH! Thanks...

--posted by cretin @ Friday, July 18 2003, 11:46 am EDT

You understand? You are avoiding the questioned. Please don't be ashamed.

--posted by ?? @ Friday, July 18 2003, 12:00 pm EDT

Ashamed of what? Please rephrase the question so that I can understand it, and then I will do my best to respond. Thanks.

--posted by cretin @ Friday, July 18 2003, 12:02 pm EDT

Newsweek || Rutgers professor Donald McCabe, an expert on student cheating, says that Harvard did the right thing: “She violated a standard the university is trying to enforce.” Current students caught plagiarizing are “ordinarily required to withdraw,” according to the student handbook. || http://www.msnbc.com/news/938181.asp

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Friday, July 18 2003, 13:01 pm EDT

BH is following the great American credo: "If something bad happens to me, it is someone else's fault, and they are going to pay."

To quote Pogo again: "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

--posted by Dismayed @ Friday, July 18 2003, 13:05 pm EDT

REPLY TO A-THOUGHT:

Apparently you missed the point of my post (yeah, me -the "perfect" Navy guy)

If you had *read* the post you would realize that I am *not* perfect -I never claimed to be. I simply stated that this was a sad situation and I related my life experience (I was no valedictorian with a 2.78 GPA in high school) as an example of how you can get a bad start out of the gate and still go on to do good things.

I worked throughout high school to help my mom pay the bills -my dad split when I was 5 and my mom was left to take care of the three of us (I have a younger brother and sister) without any financial support. I would consider that pretty darned far from perfection.

And just where do you come up with the "downright foolish" label? I think I've done plenty of time in the *real* world. I grew up poor and I am the only college graduate on either side of my family. I fought in a war and I also did humanitarian aid in Bangladesh, and a dozen other developing nations. My mom still struggles to pay the bills and I send her money when I can -I am using my stipend to help her out.

Is *that* real enough for you?

--posted by studydna @ Friday, July 18 2003, 13:29 pm EDT

I am always suspicious when people like Blair go on and on about how much they have "given back to the community." These career volunteers never seemed to have worked a day in their lives.

Has Blair ever had a job? I am always more impressed by people who work than by those who "volunteer" their services. If you are giving your time away for free, it might just be because your time isn't worth anything.

--posted by cretin @ Friday, July 18 2003, 13:40 pm EDT

"Four years in the Navy would really straighten her young rear-end out"

Well my vote was for the merchant marine but I'm glad you agree with me :-/ Pity that her condition would preclude her from either service. It would definitely be preferable to her going from one nursery to another.

The kid needs to understand that character doesn't come from charity drives and playing the professional victim. The sooner she could be made to stand on her own feet without a lawyer and a doctors note the better off she'd be in the long run, and you shouldn't have to learn that sort of lesson by making yourself into a pariah. People who continue to play the sympathy card, as well meaning as one or two of them are, should take notes from a crude but coldly accurate get well card I got years ago (see Blair, look, it's not that hard to cite something): Remember that you find Sympathy in the dictionary between "Sh*% and syphilis". Then there is the tough-love fable about the eaglet left to hatch in the pile of poo...

--posted by Bill @ Friday, July 18 2003, 14:44 pm EDT

A-Thought is apparently an advocate of the "everyone's doing it" rationalization. Everyone speeds, so that's ok. Everyone cheats on their taxes, so that's ok. Everyone steals cable television, so that's ok. Everyone pads their resume, so that's ok. Everyone pads the cost of auto repairs after an accident, so that's ok. Everyone buys stuff that "fell off the back of a truck," so that's ok. I am sure you can fill in many more "everyone does it" activities. And it isn't ok!

I have been on this rock for a long time, probably a good deal longer than most of the posters here, and I can tell you that not everyone does anything. There are people who get up in the morning and go to jobs - all kinds of jobs - and put in a good day's work, don't cheat on their taxes, and work their butts off to be good role models for their kids, and do the right thing for those around them. Many of them are not college gradustes, and couldn't even tell you where Harvard is. They drive cabs, clean offices, work at desk jobs, carry mail. Many are even accountants, lawyers, doctors, judges and politicians. There are even those among them who don't give a second thought to running into an inferno, risking and giving their lives, to save someone they don't even know. They go to places where not everyone goes, so that we all can have the opportunity to live the lives we do. Most do it without fanfare. Too many don't get the chance to ever put it on their resumes. They are all genuine heros and heroines.

No A-Thought, I am not "Dismayed" with people generally. In fact, even with all of the "mistakes" they make, and given the fact that they are human, most do a pretty good job at living. I am dismayed that a young, and obviously very talented, woman, and the family and community in which she lives, are so self absorbed that they are willing to spend all of this effort over whether she should be the sole valedictorian, or the valedictorian, at all, for that matter.

It is not just BH with whom I am dismayed. Number 2's Mom, the superintendent of schools, the MHS principal, the school board president, the entire school board, all share the blame for this sad drama. I agree with Judge Wolfson that BH should have been the sole valedictorian. The school board did not contest BH's "disability," they approved her IEP, and made the rules by which she technically was first in her class. But that is not to say I am taking her "side."

As I think about it, perhaps the entire MHS graduating class should spend four years in the Navy, joined by a good number of thier parents. It would do them all a world of good.

--posted by Dismayed @ Friday, July 18 2003, 15:09 pm EDT

Cretin avoided the issue of his education. Dismayed
is dismayed with everyone at MHS but has no empathy for Blair. To me, that is what CalProf means way above when he stated that people want to see successful people cut down at the knees.
Both of you are avoid the obvious. I also smell jealousy

--posted by ?? @ Friday, July 18 2003, 17:15 pm EDT

?? /aThought

the point of your postings is exactly what? and how are you contributing to the discussion at hand?

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Friday, July 18 2003, 18:21 pm EDT

??/aThought/Mrs. M.M., I can't answer your question until AFTER you have asked it. Please try again!

Thank you.

--posted by cretin @ Friday, July 18 2003, 18:37 pm EDT

If Blair actually were successful, I would be happy for her. At this moment, I am unable to be happy for anyone who lies, steals, cheats, etc. She is no success story. She is a pathetic shell of a person.

If Blair were able to get ahead without special privileges, she would have my blessing.

The only person here who is jealous is you, ??/aThought/Mrs. M.M. Why are you so obsessed with my level of education? Are you considering going to college? I would highly recommend it. But you aren't allowed to plagiarize there, just to warn you...

--posted by cretin @ Friday, July 18 2003, 18:40 pm EDT

you need to make this trailer longer - its hillarious!!! Thanks for making my day!

--posted by G*love @ Friday, July 18 2003, 23:47 pm EDT

IT is funny. Cretin, why do you avoid answering questions. I noticed over and over last week or the week before you asked questions and disputed them. Why won't you answer about your education????Did you go to College? Do you go to college or do you have any additional schooling after MHS? Where is that school? Cretin, you have a real hard on about Blair.
Jealous? In love? friend of opposing family? superintendent? Anyone not born while their mother was in the rice fields has special privileges. If you live in Moorestown, you have had special privileges. If you had a car at your disposal at age 16 or 17, you had special privileges and on and on

--posted by ?? @ Friday, July 18 2003, 23:56 pm EDT

Come on now - i like to make fun of Blair as much as the next person - but besides her plagerism this situation really isn't her fault - her dad is the one that made this into that saga that is has become - he's a nutjob and should be committed for his actions - Parents who raises their childern (Both kids are screwed up) in this manner are to blame - Blair is just the product of a true loser

--posted by G*love @ Friday, July 18 2003, 23:57 pm EDT

Why do you make fun of her if you believe her problems aren't her fault. Do you make fun of physicially crippled children? Do you make fun of people who inherited terrible features or handicaps from a parent? You seem more screwed up then Blaiar.

--posted by ?? @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 0:04 am EDT

And you are the product of a winner with your attitude?

--posted by ?? @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 0:05 am EDT

I have the answers, all of them, got em from a source at the paper who's related to everyone of those obviously misguided, (Cretin), don't know what to do next folks who keep on harping on things discussed and dismissed what seems like eons ago.

According to my source; Blair really doesn't exist, she is a holographic reproduction of the problem child of Kadri, commonly called Cretin. Kadri created the hologram and involved the whole Hornstine family in the deal by bribing them with mafia money and the promise of a mafia attorney, in order to bring attention to his school system in order to make the transition from local school boss to Harvard dictator.

However this came to be, Kadri's problem child befriended a Doctor with a smart son, and then the trouble began. Kadri simply couldn't kill off his hologram so he gave her a disease that would allow her to spend most of her time in the holoprojector absorbing volumes of information which caused Cretin to become insanely jealous of the projection because he had fallen hopelessly in love with it, though he knew it was really only projected light.

Hatching a plan to discredit the Blair Switch Project, Cretin wrote five essays for the local paper, using cut and pasted quotes from various sources. After the suit was filed, Cretin arranged for the papers staff to write a story about Blair, hoping to force the discovery of the ruse. What happened, however, was that the staff figured out that Cretin had plagiarized much of Blairs writings, and submitted them for publication.

Kadri, and Hornstine, seeing the opportunity to remove the spotlight from the possible discovery, turned off the projecter, claiming Blair was sent on a trip elsewhere to avoid publicity. Unfortunately, due to Cretin's misguided attempt to capture the light source for his own amusment resulted in world wide media attention.

Now in an effort to downplay the whole mess, Cretin loiters at various web blogs making like he wasnt' the actual cause of the entire event, hoping to drive attention away from the blogs by acting out on his evil plans to besmirch the entire project by discrediting his fascination with the Blair Light Switch Project, and as before his efforts have only added to the situation, an air of ignorance and rediculousness that only someone of his unlearned ways could have failed to predict.

In the ultimate irony, a double for the holographic Blair has been discovered, and is busily working on ways to overcome the continued blunders of theis project, and return it to the obscurity from which it rose.

This ruse too, has been discovered, and will be covered in the next edition of the X Files, after Scully is replaced by an alien of unknown lineage.

I swear, this is all true, my source at the paper, (Cretin), wouldn't lie. :)

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 0:38 am EDT

The truth is out there. Won't anyone believe it?

--posted by mulder @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 1:31 am EDT

Haha Douglass-Smith, if I'm Kadri, then who are you!?!? Kenny Mirkin??? Your posts are amusing, but to quote Shakespeare (attribution is fun!): "Brevity is the soul of wit." In other words, no one is impressed by your long posts. I just read the first and last paragraphs. There's not enough time in the day. Please consider condensing them!

??/aThought/Mrs. M.M./Blair: I am currently attending college. It is east of the Mississippi River. Why don't you tell us about your level of education? Or are YOU jealous????

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 9:23 am EDT

Oh, I see, I'm Kadri's love child? Who's my mommy!?

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 9:36 am EDT

an unidentified egg donor.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 11:02 am EDT

Oh, btw, I could fake typo's, too, craptin!

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 11:05 am EDT

final note: You speaking for everyone who follows this blog is like me speaking for you, pointless at best, and so funny we forget to laugh.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 11:07 am EDT

Do you honestly think that people ARE impressed by your overly long posts?

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 11:12 am EDT

*can't we all just get along?* what's the point of the petty name calling and attempts at character assassination? seriously, it's tedious. i’d rather hear people's thoughts and perspective on the blair hornstine affair than read drivel. please, can we stay on topic?

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 11:24 am EDT

Dot,

Have you read this entire thread, including the stuff Adam moved? Since you're a latecomer to this thread, I would encourage you to read it all before you decide someone is practicing character assasination other than Cretin, who, while he has toned down his rhetoric some, spent a great deal of time not only swearing and defaming people, but he plagiarized numerous posts, and bastardized them to his own twisted view of things. You have come into this debate lately, and as such before you go to the lets all get along statements, have a responsibility to view and be aware of all the actions of the posters here.

Cretins attacks on the length of my posts is simply the lastest salvo from an intellectually inferior individual with an agenda that does not include reality.

And Cretin, I don't really care if they are impressed or not, I make my point and if it takes 100 words or a thousand, I'll type them, if they read them, fine, and if they don't, that's fine too. It's my opinion, and I have expressed it, and I don't care if you don't agree. It's an opinion. I don't swear and curse and intentionally maim names like you do, I don't belittle people like you do, and I don't try to shove my opnion down anyone's throat. As for whether they like it or not, I'll say this, throughout this blog there are numerous instances where people have agreed with what I have said, and so far as I can see, zero where people have endorsed you.

You attack because you have no credible position, and you insult because you lack the intelligence to engage people in civilized debate. You remind me of a four year old on the playground, and as far as I'm concerned that's what you are, a child. You claim a college education, yet offer no proof. You claim inside information, but offer no justification of the same, and you claim to be a local, yet your IP places you over 500 miles away. You figure it out, Cretin, you have no credibility because you have never offered a definitive statement regarding your position, prefering instead to pointlessly belittle, insult and attack people who do not subscibe to your fantasy take on the situation.

Your false and repeated statements of wishing Blair the best while ripping her down show your ignorance, and your lack of respect for anyone or anything that you don't agree with. You have a right to disagree, Cretin, but you do not have the right to insult, attack, or defame, nor steal, or paraphrase anybody, anymore than Blair did, without proper attribution. Your failure to adhere to the very actions you have attacked shows you to be exactly what I think you are, a childish, hypocritical, self centered, petulant and ignorant baby incapable of reality in context or opinion, or fact.

I hope you can grasp the English, Cretin, becuase I could do it in Russian or Creole or Cherokee, but I'm sure you have no concept of those languages at all.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 14:09 pm EDT

DouglASS - I don't know why you are projecting. But it is most immature. If you want to see intellectually inferior, look in the mirror. What proof do you propose I give of my education? There is no proof that would satisfy you. You don't believe that I grew up in Moorestown, while I knew of the death of a student and Mrs. M.M. did not? What is wrong with you? Downs Syndrome? What WAS your mother smoking???

YOU have no credible position. You merely type hundreds of words of blather, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. (Yes, that was Macbeth.)

Try going to night school. Get yourself an education, a job, and a life! As I have said before, ad hominem attacks are logically fallacious. You will probably tell me to stop repeating myself, but I wouldn't need to if you would just stop MAKING THE SAME LOGICAL MISTAKES!!!

And please stop being so "childish, hypocritical, self centered, petulant and incapable of reality in context or opinion, or fact." Thanks!

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 14:57 pm EDT

S. Douglas-Smith is the most hypocritical, childish, and stupid person who has ever posted on this blog! His technique of attacking the person instead of the issue rivals that of Mrs. M.M. Come on, mods! Show some spine AND BAN HIM!

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 15:01 pm EDT

I encourage everyone to read the archives. Read how S.Douglas-Smith has contributed nothing to this discussion. See how he has taken up so much space with his ramblings that it was necessary for Adam to start a new page.

See first-hand how hypocritical S.Douglas-Smith is. He has done nothing except attack me, an innocent victim. He has bombarded me with logically fallacious arguments, which I must single-handedly fend off. Then he attacks me even more when I defend myself. He has attempted to change the subject so many times. I don't think he has posted a single comment about Blair. He has talked about Indians, sure. But who the hell cares about Indians? There are many other blogs out there. He has only chosen this one because he sees an opportunity to attack a minority: ME.

So, S.Douglas-Smith, your time here is up. You are made in the same mold as Louis Hornstine and Paul Kadri. Unless you are planning on contributing something to this discussion, why don't you go smoke your peace pipe. Your little pow wow is OVER!

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 15:11 pm EDT

P.S. According to Yahoo Maps (attribution is fun!), I am only 150 miles from Moorestown, NJ. Please do your homework and stop spreading misinformation. You remind me of the retardates that go on field trips to Walmart. I've never been defamed by a retard before, but there's a first time for everything, I guess...

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 15:19 pm EDT

Thank you, Cretin, for not only proving my point, but putting the emphisis on it so completely.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 15:55 pm EDT

Btw, Cretin, since your IP indicates a considerably greater distance, it could be that your IP uses a server to distribute IP addresses, much like mine does, because, as I once explained, I use a satellite for my initial connections, which then goes through Ohio. So, if you are geographically only 150 miles away, your IP still is 500 miles away. Learn how networks 'network', so to speak.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 15:59 pm EDT

Who is this creetin character, where did he come from, what does he want? He is always blabbing on here and not saying anything. excuse me, he does say some words like criticizing everyone but himself. He writes over and over and over. Poor person. He does not have a life. He uses some big words but has little thoughts. He avoids answers and just throws out negative remarks hoping something will stick on the wall. He only wants his palaverous arguments to be heard. They may be but they are not respected. I agree with someone above, he must be related to that Mirkins boy. They are both similiar in age, both went to the same highschool, both are of the same religious persuasion and both live in the same small narrowminded town.

Now is is criticizing Louis Hornstine, Paul Kadri and the American Indians. Young man, give it a break.

--posted by Mr. Wright @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 16:01 pm EDT

Being of Native decent, I care about Native Americans...

As for cretin, by definition, he is little more than a moron, by action he is like a termite, he nibbles until his house falls in...

By near unamimous opinion, he is a waste of time, effort, and flesh...

How sad.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 16:12 pm EDT

*sigh*

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 16:22 pm EDT

Kenny Mirkin is also an atheist? Great! I am always pleased to meet fellow atheists. Blair is closer to Kenny's age than I am. She also "attended" Kenny's high school. Does that mean Blair and Kenny are related?

Mr. Wright and S.Douglas-Smith, ad hominem attacks are logically fallacious. Please at least try to state your arguments WITHOUT the fallacies.

Good luck and good day!

P.S. I am also a native American. I guess we have something in common... But at least I don't bring it up on blogs devoted to completely different things.

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 18:16 pm EDT

S.Douglas-Smith, you might find this interesting.

Argumentum ad populum - a proposition is held to be true because it is widely held to be true or is held to be true by some sector of the population.

Examples:
(i) Everyone knows that the Earth is flat, so why do you persist in your outlandish claims?

(ii) Everyone thinks Cretin is wrong. Therefore Cretin must be wrong.

Source (attribution is fun!):
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/

See, S.Douglas-Smith! Not only are your ramblings as boring as hell, but they are also logically fallacious. Here is my tally of fallacies committed by you, starting with today's crimes:

ad hominem: 4
ad populum: 2

Keep 'em coming!!!

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 18:21 pm EDT

I noticed that in reading here that Creetin uses ad hominem, fallacious and ad populum over and over. These must be the only words or phrases he picked up from high school english. The rest of the days he must have been back hiding under a tree lizard. Your constant repititious arguments are only these words with the exception of crucifying other people who write in here. I don't think anyone here needs a lesson in English.

And Cretti, you LIe like a rug. YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY STATED THAT YOU WERE A 20ISH YEAR OLD JEWISH YOUTH FROM MOORESTOWN, NEW JERSEY, NOT AN AMERICAN INDIAN. You are probably twisting words to be a Native American because this is where you were born. It's the old in this case antisemitic (or anti black, etc)cliche - Some of my best friends are Jewish routine. The only tribe you are from is a Hebrew one.

--posted by JohnT. @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 19:20 pm EDT

S. D.S. - Is that you on your website in the 'boobies' picture? Inquiring minds want to know?

--posted by I Am Curious Yellow @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 19:28 pm EDT

I use the terms ad hominem, fallacious, and ad populum because S.Douglas-Smith's actions warrant the use of such terms. If you are tired of me saying them, take it up with him. And S.Douglas-Smith does need a lesson in English. If you haven't noticed, his posts are overly long. A high school level English course should help him with that. A course in philosophy and/or logic would also help him (and you) formulate better arguments. Don't you understand? Logical fallacies make your arguments WRONG!!!!

And sorry, John T, but I haven't lied. I am 20 years old. I grew up in Moorestown, NJ and graduated from Moorestown High School. And I am now attending a well-known university that is located east of the Mississippi River. What else would you like to know?

Finally, although I am an atheist, my blood is Jewish enough that Hitler would have had me gassed. And I never said that I was American Indian. I am native American and proud of it. You are twisting my words.

Have a nice weekend!

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 19:40 pm EDT

Let's sing

Chicago, Chicago my old home town...Chicago, chicago, I'll take you around. Bet your bottom dollar...you go to school between here and there.

--posted by John T. @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 20:17 pm EDT

Yes, Chicago is east of the Mississippi. You are very astute...

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 21:08 pm EDT

Cretin, the difference between you and I is night and day. I can trace my ancestory in this country over 800 years, you may be able to trace yours to the Mayflower, though I doubt it. My Native status comes with the name of a tribe, clan, and family history that has been handed down the generations in song and dance to honor those before me, yours, most likely you couldn't trace it beyond 1850. As for Jewish blood, in fifth grade I learned that like Christianity, Judisim is a religion, not an ethnicity, thus there is not such thing as Jewish blood.

Your rantings on this blog already caused you to be temporarilly banned once before, and your attacks on posters who disagree with you are well documented every time you click on the post button. Your attempts to belittle people, and in particular me, are not only as you put it logically fallacious. You have no awareness of me, other than what I let you have, and at least I make no secret of who I am.

I have been photographed with boobies, that popped, (damnit) right after the photo, but for a minute, even Wendy Whoppers would have been envious, and I can do that because I'm secure in my masculinity. Of course you would find a way to pervert that into some cretinous deed that requires counseling and incarceration, as opposed to just having fun. You have twisted and torn and ignored every valid point placed in this blog, and your immaturity is punctuated repeatedly by your inability to make a reasonable post, as opposed to making a pointless justification for your actions.

Simply put, you're not native, you have no native blood, you wouldn't know the difference between a Cherokee or Hopi or Yaki. You wouldn't understand the relationship we have with the land, or the values we have. You wouldn't know what one of our values was if it fell out of the sky and landed on you. Instead you exhibit typical European values of 'me me me' instead of forgiveness, integrity or honor. Your lack of humility is exceeded by your inability to logically present your case, which as a matter of reality lacks even the basic bindings of intelligence. You argue just to argue, you don't have a clue as to what you are, except that you know you aren't what you appear. You're worse, and you like the negative attention, then again, it's probably the only kind you've ever recieved.

Logically facillitate this: I am a man, a human being, and I am entitled to my opinion, even if you don't like it. Mrs. MM is a woman, a human being and entitled to her opinion, even if you don't like it, and you, though you lower the value of the term, are a human being, and entitled to your opinion, even if we don't like it, but you are not entitled to attack people without repercussion just because you're you. If you act in life as you do on this blog, one day, sooner than later I should think, someone like me will put your teeth down your throat so far that when you smile your feet will get the view. You're arrogant, and presumtive, and childish, and ignorant, and if you want to call those statements logically fallacious, feel free, but your actions in this case speak far louder than your words. You've proven my points repeatedly, perhaps one day you will figure that out, until then, you will be just a boy from New Jersey that thinks he knows more than the rest of the world.

You don't.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 22:01 pm EDT

*yawn*

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 22:27 pm EDT

Like it or not, I am just as native as you are. But unlike me, you exhibit the typical hunter gatherer values of "Attack, maim, and kill." I am proud of my European heritage, but I am also proud to be a NATIVE American. You cannot take that away from me. You can go on and on and on about your "relationship" with the land, but the truth of the matter is that you wouldn't understand MY relationship with it, or my values, if they fell out of the sky and hit YOU on the head. Get off of your high horse, Tonto...

EVERYTHING you have said about me is a perfect description of YOU. Please look in the mirror. Or do Indians not have mirrors? Anyway, YOU are the embodiment of arrogance. YOU throw tantrums like a child when you are contradicted. YOU have continuously attempted to belittle ME, a minority. YOU give humans a bad name. YOU are the reason why there is rape and murder in this world. All you do is attack attack and attack some more. You have no idea what logic is, and why it is important to keep personal attacks out of your arguments. These strategies didn't work for your hunter gatherer ancestors, and they will not work for you.

You will continue to prove my points until you do us all the favor of leaving this Earth. If you continue acting the way you have acted here, someone may come to the decision that it is necessary to put you out of commission. Permanently. And quite frankly, I wouldn't blame that person one bit.

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 22:40 pm EDT

|| get off of our jungle gym || no, it's not yours || we were here first || it's not your playground || yes, it is || no, it isn't ||yes, it is || no, it isn't || yes, it is || no, it isn't || nanananan || shut up! || no, you shut up! || shut up! || no, you shut up! || nanananan || i'm goin' call my mom || go ahead, call your mommy, nananananananana || Mom, maaaaa, maaaa, maaaa!

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 22:49 pm EDT

Indians or S. Douglas-Smith is the reason for rape and murder in this world?? You are ou of your tree! Next you will blame him for 9-11. Are you nuts? At first I thought maybe you were a 10 year old, then I thought you just liked to hear youself babble, now I know -------YOU ARE NUTS!

--posted by jtw @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 22:54 pm EDT

People like S. Douglas-Smith are the reason that rape and murder exist. All they do is attack innocent people. They serve no social function except to provide police officers with jobs.

S. Douglas-Smith thinks that only he and Mrs. M.M. are entitled to opinions. I am here to tell him that he is wrong. If you want to see babbling nuts, S. Douglas-Smith seems to be the guy to go to.

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 22:57 pm EDT

Blair and Cretin are from the same school and same town. Gag! What is in the water there?

Compared to Cretin, Blair is perfection, the smartest person around, Miss America, Miss Wonderful, Miss Brains.

I originally thought maybe The Hornstine family had a feather missing from their headdress. Cretin is missing his head.

--posted by I'm gagging @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 23:33 pm EDT

Gee flaming guys. While you may enjoy your off-topic back and forth, nobody else does. Let's try to stay on the topic of the Hornstines and their community, school board, college, and media activities. Or we could talk about related more general issues such as the morality of résumé padding.

For example I noticed that S. Douglas-Smith proudly displays an "award" from the NRCC (National Republican Congressional Committee)
http://www.designwolf.com/graphicas/a%20to%20c/award.jpg
Looks impressive, doesn't it? But on inspection you can note that there is no date on it, so you start to wonder exactly what it was for. And you wonder why someone who insists on hyphenating his last name doesn't have a hyphen on the certificate. You would think this wouldn't happen if whoever gave him the award actually knew him.

Well, it turns out that these awards are meaningless fundraising devices of the NRCC. See these stories: http://aggressive-voice.com/zz532.html , http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/nrcc_020502.html

Now in the case of S D-S it may be that he was naïve and was wowed by their flattery and gave them money. Or he may have been cynical and gone directly to the Business Advisory Council website http://www.businessadvisorycouncil.org/contactus/contactus.asp and signed up. Anybody can go there, give money, and get an award. Maybe S D-S can tell us whether the wording on the certificate depends upon how much money you give.

In google, http://www.google.com/search?q=%22National+Republican+Congressional+Committee%22+%22National+Leadership+Award%22 you can see maybe 200 other people who note their awards. Who knows how many are naïve vs. cynical. Either way, I know to keep away from people who display such bogus awards.

But what do other people think? Is résumé padding with sham awards legitimate as long as it attracts more people than it drives away? Will S D-S continue to display his award even though he now knows that people laugh at him because of it?

--posted by MonkeyBrains @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 0:11 am EDT

fast-forward ten years||we were on the basketball court first||so who the fuck cares?||we do||so who the fuck cares||we do||yeah?||yeah||yeah?||yeah||you guys, suck||no, you guys suck||you really think so?||yeah||your momma's a whore"||wadda say?||you heard me||no, fuckhead, wadda say?||you heard me||no i didn't||yes you did||no i didn't||yes you did||fuck you...no i didn't||wanna make something of it?|| fuck you|| no, fuck you||

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 1:10 am EDT

fast forward even another ten - or, twenty years ... ||SDS - you suck||no, cretin, you suck||yeah - but your an idiot, SDS||fuck you, cretin - you're the idiot||what? you have nothing to say||what? you have nothing to say||what? fuck you.||what? fuck you.||no you go fuck yourself||you first||what?||let's go back-and-forth||what?||back-and-forth on mindless drivel, expend alot of our energy ... and monopolize this blog||okay||what?||fuck you?||what?||you heard what i said.||no, i didn't||yes, you did||no i didn't||yes, you did||what?||fuck you||no, fuck you!||

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 1:24 am EDT

Well Monkey Brains, I can tell you, I didn't give the Republican Party a penny, and you'll note the award doesn't mention, co chair or anything like that, because contrary to popular belief, the award was not a solicitation for funds, rather it was an award provided for work I did in Ocala Florida to restore a data base of information for the City, and it was recommended by the Mayor of Ocala, and presented by the Mayor of Ocala. There are numerous other awards, which I don't display on my website, however, if you read the information which I post on my site, you'll note that I don't even support the Republican party, so I can't tell you what amount would garner a co chairman's position on the Advisory Council.

I further never released a press document about the award, rather I put a photo of it up, because, like you said, it's impressive looking, isn't it?

I have no need to pad my resume, as you put it, my business is quite successful without a resume, thank you, and frankly, I could retire tomorrow on a seven figure income for the rest of my life, on a business that I build from the ground up, awards or no awards. If you had read one of my earliest posts, Monkey Brains, you'd know the award I'm proudest of is one from my old school district, and the Alumni Association for my work to improve the school system. I have donated over 1,000 computer systems and 7 servers to my school system, including software, networking, and upkeep, can you say that? Can you do that?

My business donates 500+ new computers a year to children with physical disabilities, and over 300 a year to hospitals that care for children with muscular disabilities that allow them to be a part of the world.

In my town, we provide over 80% of the financial support for the Special Olympics, and we provided the police department with computers for it's cruisers, a tower for transmission repeaters, and a building for the police substation.

That's what I do, and if you think I need to pad my resume, you're not only sadly mistaken, but you've proven you know nothing about who I am. You've never heard of me because I don't want you to know WHO I am. Yet my computers are rated in the top ten worldwide in terms of speed and performance. In fact on my website is a direct side by side comparison of one of mine versus one of the fastest on earth, and mine beats it, because that's what I do, I win in spite of people like you who would discredit me because you've not the ability to deal with me. As for my awards, there are more in my closets than on my display racks, and the only awards there are the ones that matter most, and that's the customers that keep coming back year after year for my products and services. It's why a company that began in a bedroom garners service awards from congress, and from the people it services, and from the industry it thrives in, in spite of the fact that over 30% of my competitors have gone out of business in the last twelve months.

It's because of the children who have a shot, who wouldn't have if I hadn't done something. It's because of the parents who now believe that anything is possible, and it's because of the people like you who would ridicule what they know nothing about, proffering opinion in place of reality, and adding insult because they can't dispute the validity of the points.

I will keep on being me, and being proud of my efforts, and my work, and my products, which are the best in the business, in my opinion, and if you don't want one, that's okay, I wasn't trying to sell you one anyway, because frankly Monkey Brains, I doubt you could afford one, and you're not on my charity list.

I laugh all the way to the bank, and then back again... and I'm laughing now.

Dig deeper, sling more mud, just this time, remember to duck.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 1:36 am EDT

Cretin,

Idiots may be classified as minorities, I don't know, but if they're not, maybe you could offer to be the president of the "Idiots have disabilities, too" club.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 1:43 am EDT

oh my ... let the pissing contest begin!

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 1:44 am EDT

or is it ... my dick is bigger than yours?

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 1:45 am EDT

okeley-dokeley||where were we?||oh, yeah||blair hornstine||graduating student at moorestown (nj) high school||valedictorian||no, co-valedictorian||no, sole valedictorian||no, co-valedictorian||dad! daaaaaaddy||temporary restraining order||sole valedictorian||2.7 million damage suit||community reaction||missed graduation||plagiarism (gasp!)||fuck you||no, fuck you||see you in court||oops...harvard weighs in||you can't fire me, i quit||blogs abuzz||blogs off topic||fuck you||no, fuck you||

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 1:59 am EDT

Gee, S. D-S, even Mother Theresa did't do all that stuff. Don't break your arm.

--posted by Wondering @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 9:27 am EDT

S.Douglas-Smith, although my name means "idiot," remember that is what YOU are and always will be.

I'm gagging: thanks for the compliment. I agree that I am perfection compared to Blair.

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 9:50 am EDT

Jesus H. Christ, can't you people find anything to do to twist this blog around besides me? I could care less what you think, and even less about who you are, don't you get it, this board isn't about me, but you all seem to feel you can make unjustified personal attacks against me, and I shouldn't respond.

Mother Theresa makes me look like a worm.

What I do is what I do, are you so envious that you can't see the forest for the trees, I mean really, why do you have to make a blog devoted to what is in your opinion, a ripping fest against a child, about me, or what I do? Get a life because I can tell you this, there isn't a one of you out there big enough to fill my shoes.

And Wondering, I wonder, have you no opinion about Blair, or Harvard, or anything, or is it your personal bash S. Douglas-Smith day? I mean really folks, grow the up.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 9:53 am EDT

S.D-S: I said I wouldn't add any contributions here for at least a week because that is when I would have something new to report.

However, I think I might change my mind. You and I attempting to explain the truth of the world in the Blair matter is like spitting into the wind with the posters that have recently come on board. They may not be 12 year olds but cetainly act it. They only want their 1 1/2 seconds of fame of seeing their crazy names and ignornant words in print.

S. D-S. Maybe in the future, I will directly e mail you if I have something to add to the BLH discussion that I believe you would be interested in hearing.

These "kids" are just lonely and in need of some friends and good advice. They don't even seem to understand good vs. bad. You keep up your good work. Make YOURSELF proud. You don't need to explain to morons what charity, decentness, growth or work is. They will NEVER get it.

P. S. I don't want to hear from any of your morons either. Find a moron web page to spew on. The more I read your posts, the more I feel sorry for Miss H. and the more I know how bright she is and how unfairly she has been treated...especially when compared to the last have dozen or so know nothing posters. You are the ones that are judging her??? You are a pathetic lot.

S. D-S: Answering these "people" is like feeding "oats to a dead horse."

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 9:53 am EDT

blank between the and up

--posted by you figure out what the missing word is @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 9:54 am EDT

You know what Cretin, if I am, I'll say this, I'm a rich idiot, now go sit in the dark with the other mushrooms.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 9:56 am EDT

Another snoozefest from Mrs. M.M.

yawn...

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 9:56 am EDT

S. D-S. One more thought: Without the word "FUCK", these people would be mutes--they are already deaf and dumb!

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 9:57 am EDT

Another attack on an innocent minority. Such a shame.

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 9:58 am EDT

Mrs. M.M., you do realize that you are describing YOURSELF perfectly?

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 9:58 am EDT

I think Mrs. M.M. should be banned for spewing obscenities...

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 9:58 am EDT

Mrs. MM,

Feel free, anytime.

It isn't about making me proud, it's about the kids who will get a chance to learn technology.

Who will get a chance I didn't have.

Who will be part of a connected world I was not able to explore.

Who will read from books that were not printed in 1951.

Who will graduate and actually have a chance to get into Harvard, like Phi Anne Doan, Harvard class of '96, the first graduate of my school to go to Harvard. Her parents couldn't afford the needs she had, but they were met.

Who will be part of the world instead of watching it go by.

Who will grow up with opportunity amidst the squalor, and who will know that work is the key to success.

Who will give back because they can.

Who will shape their futures because they have control of them.

Who will enter society aware, instead of awed.

Who will make a difference.

Who will care, and be cared for, who will supercede the status quo placed on them by the white population, and who will excell because they can, and because they now have the tools to do so.

Does that make me proud? Yes. Does it make me special? No. Does it make a difference? Absolutely.

That's what it's about.

You all have a nice Sunday, I'm going kayaking down the Gunnison.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 10:04 am EDT

Final note: Mrs. MM, not only are you right, twits like cretin couldn't understand the moral right vs. what he percieves as the ethical right, without first 'fucking' the ethics, and corrupting the morals.

Pity someone actually may know him.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 10:07 am EDT

yawwwwwwwwwwn.

More ad hominem attacks from Chief Bigmouth.

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 10:11 am EDT

How does any of this relate to the Blair fiasco? Please try to stay on topic, S.Douglas-Smith and Mrs. M.M.

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 10:12 am EDT

S.D-S.

You, too, have a nice day. I am going swimming with some intelligent beings.

Our young want to change things for the "better." They want to be social workers and spew what they believe is truth and justice. They don't yet live in the real world of earning the buck to feed THEMSELVES 24/7 , paying a mortgage or educating "their" children. It doesn't just happen with a promise and a smile. They read about the Third World Countries and think "we" should do something about them, but they don't understand that "they" may be the ones who give up "their" lives to protect them or it is "they" who have their taxes raised. I wonder how many of them would give up "their" cars, computers and beer to donate the money to the underpriviledged. I even wonder how Adam would fare in his "spirit of the law" rather than the "letter of the law" if it directly effected his pocketbook or a loss of life in his family.

S.D-S. The sun is brightly shining. I am not going to waste any more of this beautiful day inside. Look up at the sun, enjoy and thank your lucky stars that you can spend this glorius day "playing." YOU earned it!

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 10:31 am EDT

yawn

--posted by cretin @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 10:33 am EDT

The New Jersey section of today's New York Times has an article about the Hornstine matter by Jill Capuzzo. There is a quote from Kadri expressing empathy for Blair and some rather negative remarks from others. The only new fact is that a settlement of the damages part seems near. "The lawsuit seeking $2.7 million in damages against the Moorestown school district is still pending but last Wednesday the school board held an emergency session in which the Hornstine matter was discussed, said Cyndy Wulfsburg, the board president. And although no one would comment on the talks, one person close to the matter said a settlement seemed near."

--posted by DM @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 14:43 pm EDT

Oh my, I told you I probably would have news for you next Week. And I said it several days ago, long before this article in the newspaper was even WRITTEN.
Guess I know something!!!!!

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 16:32 pm EDT

It is not uncommon for litigants to settle an action after a court grants an injunction. Published accounts of possible settlement negotiations date to shortly after entry of the district court opinion in June. Respective counsel are scheduled to meet with the district court in several weeks to discuss, among other subjects, the status of potential settlement. The school board met last Wednesday, your post is dated Thursday evening. The probable settlement of this action has been rumored in town for weeks.

Will the school district admit liability for one or more of the claims alleged in the complaint? Defendants do not usually admit liability as a term of settlement.

Will the regretable recent events decrease any monetary settlement, and if so, to what extent?

Does Ms. Hornstine plan to file an action against Harvard, and if so, under what theories?

Has Ms. Hornstine found a less "hostile" college environment than Harvard? If so, where will she attend college in the fall?

Did Judge Hornstine accept some type of teaching position at Harvard Law School? If so, what is the status of his position? If he is planning to teach at Harvard, or someplace else, will he commute or does he intend to resign from his "tenured" position as a superior court judge?

--posted by TM @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 20:20 pm EDT

Many knew that the school board had a meeting last Wednesday. Please fill us in on the details requested by TM, Mrs. MM. Also, tell us what you know about the law suit against the Educational Testing Service by the Hosnstines when they disputed one of Adam's answers. Was this a threatened law suit or did they actually sue? My understanding is that Judge Hornstine had an adjunct position at Harvard, not anything full-time. Was this in one of their clinics? Don't taunt us with you "knowledge". Share it.

--posted by DM @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 20:34 pm EDT

MHS will pay a monetary settlement to Miss H. The school board has been snooping around for reasons to lessen the award, but to date have found nothing definitive to lower the offer. They will try, though.

Harvard? No decisions have been determined

College plans for Miss H. WILL NOT BE ANNOUNCED, but I assure you, SHE WILL ATTEND A REPUTABLE 4 YEAR UNIVERSITY IN THE FALL.

Judge Hornstine is an adjunct teacher at Harvard Law. He teaches a course or two each year on vacation time he has with the State of New Jersey. He also teaches at another well known university. He will NOT be giving up his position as a Superior Court Judge in the near future.

--posted by Mrs. M.M. @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 20:40 pm EDT

ETS and Adam is an old story. Adam's official college board score was 1600.

There is no reason to dig up old bones. Since I always seem to be in a hostile environment with my thoughts and information, I see no reason to add old information which is absolutely not relevant to Blair. Let one child have some peace.

If these children were not that smart, neither one would have scored a 1570 or 1600. Neither had extra time, was graded by their Mother, etc. as so many of you want to believe. They each earned their scores fairly and squarely despite what you nasayers, opponents and critics say. Whether you like their Father and Mother or not, they sure inherited some "bright" genes.

Share it,(my knowledge)DM says. The truths I have written has been disputed over and over. I don't really care if anyone believes. I just attempt to set the record straight; it bothers me to see a bright young lady like Blair be the subject of ridicule from lies that have been spread. Too many people like to see her fall on her face because they are either ignorant, jealous or figure that one child had the good life, why should the other. The truthful stories are not as colorful as the gossipy lies that go around.

I quote CalProf on July 15:". An early poster said that her critics suffer schadenfreude, the malicious glee we feel when those above us suffer misfortune. I agree, noting that our delight in the "feet of clay" of high achievers is because their downfall makes us less anxious about our own excesses and failings. Hornstine's plummet means that we were right in not working so addiduously for success, AND now there's one fewer person above us and making us feel anxious about our own status. So we feel good at her problems."

Those that feel good about her problems, and I believe that hits most of you posting here, are a sick and envious bunch. Blair will eventually come out smelling like a Rose. Most of you will still have thorns of jealousy.
















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--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 20:58 pm EDT

The Harvard Law School website references one adjunct professor, but a relatively large number of lecturers on law. If Judge Hornstine accepted a position with the law school, it may be more likely in the latter category than the former.

P.S. I am pleased to see the discussion is becoming more civil and on point than it has been during the past several days.

--posted by TM @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 21:12 pm EDT

So, Mrs. M. M., I really am jealous. I wish that I could have scored a 1600 or a 1570 on my SATs. I resent people that are smarter than I. My CV is not as impressive as any of those about which we are talking. I did not do the glorious things that S. D-S has done, and I will never be able to retire on a seven figure income. I certainly am not privileged to have the inside information that you have about what is going to happen next in this mess. I guess, from your point of view, I am less than than you.

How is any of that relevant to the facts of this case? BH did plagiarize - stole materials first written by others, and tried to pass then off as her own. Then this wonderfully bright young woman tried to explain the whole thing away by saying she didn't know how to properly attribute the works of others in a journalistic effort. Those are the facts.

Hell, as dumb as I am, I certainly knew before I got out of grammar school that one should not do that. And, that is a fact, too.

So, tell me how my being a dumb, jealous schadenfreude sufferer excuse anything that BH did?

--posted by Wondering @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 21:28 pm EDT

DM: you spoke about a "law suit against the Educational Testing Service by the Hosnstines when they disputed one of Adam's answers"

is that true? did the hornstines file suit? can somone provide more info, please? this is relevant, since a shows a propensity to sue. it speaks volumes about the family's approach to the world.

--posted by dothecrimedothe time @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 21:30 pm EDT

It does show a propensity to sue and Mrs. MM, who wants us all to believe she is omniscient as to the Hornstines, does not dispute the law suit against ETS. No one is suggesting the young Horstines are not smart. But reading this story as one of misguided exessive parental involvement and control in the lives of their children is not unfounded.

--posted by DM @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 21:50 pm EDT

i agree DM. as i learn more about the facts i personally find this entire affair to be ever more distasteful: the litigious nature of the family, the failure to acknowledge the plagiarism, the lawyers' spin that "hostile environments" are the reason for the predicament that blair finds herself in. i can only imagine what other "bones" are buried and yet to be dug up. ever more reason for the hornstines to settle and get out of the spotlight as quickly as possible...otherwise, i suspect, other facts may come out that are less than flattering.

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 22:02 pm EDT

The past several comments raise relevant issues without making any personal attacks.

Mrs. M.M. states that Judge Hornstine is an "adjunct teacher" at HLS who teaches "one or two courses each year on vacation time he has from the [State]." The HLS website does not list Judge Hornstine as an adjunct professor, a visiting professor, or a lecturer on law. What courses did Judge Hornstine teach? Does HLS offer "short courses," and if so, in what subjects?
Will he teach at HLS this coming year?

The question about Adam Hornstine's SAT scores is relevant to the propensity of certain family members to assert claims over issues most people would consider insignificant. Adam was first in his class at MHS, recently graduated from Harvard, and will attend HLS next year. One may logically assume his SAT scores were high. The statement that Adam's "official" SAT score was 1600 is not responsive to the question raised by DM and supports an adverse inference.

--posted by TM @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 22:32 pm EDT

Who cares what Adam did or does in school? It is NOT relevant to the lawsuit. Oh, you say, it shows propensity to sue. Oh, I say, it shows that they have blue eyes. Bull S***. Blair won her case against the school board and will reap some financial reward because they treated her unfairly. The end.

As far as Adam, it has nothing to do with anything.It is none of anyone's business what he did or has done. Are you going to go after the family dogs, too????

As far as where and when Judge Hornstine teaches ,it has nothing to do with either of the children. What does he teach, you ask? What do you think?? underwater checkers? How ridicilous of a question. What does that have to do with anything? Will he teach this year? Why do you care? Are you afraid you will miss something? Has he been thrown out, is really what you want to know. NO WAY! You are trying real hard to find additional blame besides the school board. NO WAY!

As far as her plagiarism, it got her admission rescinded from Harvard, but had NOTHING to do with her winning the case against MHS other than a witch hunt to discredit her.

Blair L. Hornstine vs. Moorestown High School Board. That is the case. That is the hearing. That is the award.

Next, you will want to know what Mrs. Hornstine serves for dinner. Did she ever return anything in a department store? You might find something dubious about that....Maybe she had an ulterior motive...maybe she didn't pay her bill on time. Get with it. If you
want to discuss the FACTS OF THIS CASE, FINE. You're getting as bad as the people who "tsk tsk tsk' her in the supermarket. If you want to dig up her dirty diapers, don't bother me.

As far as bones to be dug up. There are less skeletons in the closets of the Hornstines than most families. Litigious nature? Pleeeeease.It does not matter. The case was BLH vs. MHS. The judge found in her favor and the Board will pay. The end. The rest is rotten dessert.

P. S. Excuuuuse me. I refer to Judge Hornstine as an adjunct professor/teacher at Harvard. He could be called the janitor. I do not know the "title" he is given. I do know that he goes up to Boston to teach a course or two in January or February. Maybe he is just called Blair's Dad! I am aware he has taught at two other law schools. One of which still
counts on him at different times throughout the year.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 0:08 am EDT

Mrs. M.M.

I tend to agree with the analysis, if not the tone of the district court opinion regarding the single, narrow substantive issue in the pending action; i.e., whether the defendants discriminated against BH by attempting to retroactively amend the criteria for the class valedictorian award. It logically follows that BH may be entitled to compensatory damges and attorney's fees, at least to some limited extent. I am neither surprised nor disappointed that the school board will apparently settle the action, hopefully with equitable terms and for a modest amount of money.

Like many in the Moorestown community, I find the events of the past several months to be unfortunate and regretable. Notwithstanding the precipitating actions of BH, with their inevitable consequences, no one takes pleasure from the recision of her acceptance to Harvard or her public embarassment.

BH's attorneys and some of her supporters have attempted to vilify the hometown that supported her charitable activities, the newspaper that erroneously published her "misattributed" work, and the college of her choice. As grist for the litigation mill, many of these comments are at best exaggerated and at worst inaccurate. Like most people in town, I am content to let them fall of their own accord.

However, I have not encountered anyone in Moorestown, regardless of their opinion, who uses the offensive tone or the inappropriate language that you regularly resort to in your comments. Your inane premise that Moorestown is a figuratively "hostile" mob of torch-bearing villagers set out to pillory a disabled high school valedictorian is absurd. Community reaction, always more temperate than you portray, is layered, complex, and the result of far more than visceral disdain for litigation conducted "opera boffa."

Cambridgema is right, your comments are uninformed and uninformative. Perhaps more damning, they are unforgivably tedious.

--posted by TM @ Monday, July 21 2003, 4:54 am EDT

"Blair won her case against the school board..." wrong. blair was granted injunctive relief by way of a temporary restraining order. the case has yet to go to trial and be heard by a judge and/or jury. no guilt or liability has been established. the parties are involved in settlement talks, so as to avoid a trial. i suspect that the school district - and likely its insurance firm - want to avoid costly drawn out legal proceedings, while the hornstines seek to limit further exposure and public scrutiny that a trial will bring (issues of character, review of blair's school work, etc.). blair's character is subject to intense public scrutiny. the issue of previous litigation by the family is extremely relevant, so as to establish a pattern of litigious behavior.

questions about judge hornstines status at harvard law school show an interest of some who post here in learning more about him. nothing more, nothing less. appropriate curiosity. wanting to know what he teaches at the law school - and is what capacitry - is also relevant. if he teaches tort law - i can tell you people would find that fascinating. if so, i suspect he doesn't side with tort reform, since he seems to use the legal system in obscure ways to advance his kids. after all, his seeking a temporary restraining order against the mooresetown school system was precipitated on a wide array of accusations - [as noted in the judge's opinion]: defamation, discrimination, invasion of privacy, violation of non-disclosure provisions, etc....all of which were thrown out. it's a case of flinging the spaghetti against the refrigerator door to see what might stick.

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 8:48 am EDT

correction : [all of which were thrown out...except for discrimination]

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 8:49 am EDT

You had better read Judge Wolfson's opinion with respect to what she threw out. You are wrong, wrong, wrong. If you still don't or won't understand, please hire a real lawyer to explain it to you.

If the MHS board had one iota of doing something, anything correctly, they would have appealed this case instead of opening their pocketbooks. The glass is half full, not half empty.

You are just another sufferer of schadenfreude or you can't or won's see the forrest through the trees. Keep trying to dig up new dirt. When the check is written out and Blair moves on, where will you naysayers be?

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 10:00 am EDT

i have read the judge's opinion...and have a background in law.

the current legal case - i.e. whether the school district is guilty of discrimination has not yet been determined. so, there is nothing yet to appeal.

if a jury were to rule at the conclusion of a yet-to-be-held trial (assuming no settlement is reached...and the case does indeed get to trial) and find in favor of blair, then the school system could appeal to a higher court.

i have made no statement nor hold any view regarding blair, etc. i think the whole affair is complicated, messy and unfortunate.

mrs. m.m. - you seem to lash out at anyone and anything which stands to challenge you, your position, blair or the hornstines. are you really that holy and above the rest? you seem to let your emotions get in the way of any rationality here. please, please let's stick to the facts, to the issues and not to your unwarranted attacks. your position is fraught with error, misinformation and obfuscation.

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 10:31 am EDT

it's clear to me what the judge refused to consider in determining the need for injunctive relief... from the judge's opinion ...

“Plaintiff has also brought an invasion of privacy claim under the Family Education Rights and Privacy Act, 20 U.S.C. § 1232g. The Supreme Court has held, however, that there is no private right of action under this Act. See Gonzaga Univ. v. Doe, 536 U.S. 273, 290 (2002). Therefore, this claim will not be considered…” (http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/fed/html/ca03-1953-1.html#Footref5).

“…based on the parties' briefing and comments in a teleconference held on May 6, 2003, the Court does not construe paragraph 23 of Count One in plaintiff's complaint to set forth causes of action based on defamation, breach of contract, or violation of the non- disclosure provisions of N.J.A.C. 6A:14-1.1 - 6A:14 App. E.” (http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/fed/html/ca03-1953-1.html#Footref5).

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 10:50 am EDT

i personally have no interest in digging up "old dirt"...but, can tell you that past actions and behavior on the part of Blair and her family are likely to be sought as the school system seeks to defend itself.

in any legal proceeding a jury will be asked to weigh numerous factors. a jury needs to assess character, credibility, etc. hey, look at the current situation involving kobe bryant. it is a case which boils down to "he-said-she-said". credibility of both parties will be scrutinized. today's reporting that the accuser may have recently overdosed - and has been distraught over a break-up with a boyfriend, etc. will likely be a factor presented to a jury - in order that they can consider what frame of mind she was in - and how much they should or should not believe her. there will be many character references sought - the good and the bad - for both the accuser and the accused. same goes for the hornstine versus kadri/mooresetown situation.

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 10:59 am EDT

regarding the narrow focus of the granting of injunctive relief based on perceived or real discrimination by the school district in seeking to retroactively amend the criteria for establishing valedictorian status, i agree with TM that the judge's finding for injunctive relief was likely correct. whether or not a jury agrees is, well, up to the jury. and if they agree...it will be interesting to see what, if any, damages are awarded.

i suspect, however, we will never see a trail, a finding of guilt or innocence or a jury award, since a settlement is likely the best avenue for all involved. i predict that the settlement will be announced soon (since the hornstines want to get out of the limelight); that the school will admit no guilt; that a nominal monetary settlement (mrs mm- for your benefit - read here: that it is a settlement and not an award of damages - since no trial will be held...no guilt established...hence no damages assessed)will be provided...and such amount may be made public - since the school board consists of publicly elected representatives ... and transparency will be sought by the public to know the amount and whether or not such funds will be taken from the school coffers - or, are covered by the district's liability insurance.

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 11:10 am EDT

The school may not admit any guilt as part of the financial settlement, but it is clear to anyone with any knowledge of the law, (me, too) that the school board could have or would have challenged the tiniest word in Judge Wolfson's decision, if they had a "toe" to stand on. If they "could" have challenged the Judge, they would do so as to reduce their liability when the monetary award was discussed or trialed.

The school board is more needy to settle this than the Hornstines. The school board needs to go on with the coming year; they need to settle teachers' salaries; they need to settle Kadri options; they need to see if any cuts will be necessiatated; they need to possibly revamp their student handbook; they need to cap their attorney costs, and they need to protect the costs spend in obtaining Kadri as well as their own re-elections. Miss Hornstine will be in the limelight for a few more months until she is settled in her new university. She may be forced out again when she begins law school or takes her first job. These public viewings will be provided by the press no matter what the financial settlement is or when with MHS.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 12:29 pm EDT

Will the school board attorneys have an opportunity to depose BH, her father, mother, etc. in discovery? If so, we would all like to be a fly on the wall.

Since the school board is a public body, and the amount and terms of a settlement will likely be public information after it's finally settled, will the doposition transcripts also become public information?

Is Judge Hornstine tenured? Has the state supreme court expressed any interest in his behavior in this matter? Did he unfaily use the weight of his office in getting concessions for BH?

Doesn't it make sense for BH and family want to avoid testifying in dopositions? Doesn't that consideration weigh in favor of a resonable settlement from the school district's point of view? Since the credibility of all of the witnesses will be a key issue at trial (assuming one is ever held), does the issue of BH's knowlege about properly attributing sources in her journalistic efforts become relevant?

If the school board settles quickly, and to the dissatifaction of Moorestonw voters, does this whole thing become an issue during the next school board elections? Is the school board president elected by the people, or was she appointed by the board as a whole?

How is any of this positive for any of the players involved?

--posted by Wondering @ Monday, July 21 2003, 12:31 pm EDT

Does Mrs. M. M. know anything about filing appeals from interlocutory orders?

--posted by Wondering @ Monday, July 21 2003, 12:36 pm EDT

TM
Your post of 4:54 AM EDT today is stunningly reasoned, articulate and well written. Several other posters have also contributed to raise the level of this debate. Thanks for making this blog still worthwhile to visit.

--posted by DM @ Monday, July 21 2003, 13:09 pm EDT

Why would they depose them now?

The transcript of the hearing is public. You can pay to receive same.

Yes, he is tenured. What did he do AGAINST the law that would threaten his judgeship? Boy, some of you do look for "crazies". This is personal matter. The only bearing his judgeship has on the case is that possibly he is more familiar with hearings, law, etc. than the average person. If Miss h's father was a doctor, he would have more than average informaton about her illness, a dress designer, more info on the coming year's fashions, and so on.

What she did in the Courier Post has NO relevance to her school work. I can't believe I had to say that. It is like asking if the color of the suit she wore had any relevance to the court decision. No problems were found in any of the high school assignments she was given - and the Board did try to find some. Don't forget, the plagiarism in the newspaper WAS DISCOVERED by the AUNT of the BOARD's ATTORNEY who did the requested SNOOPING. Don't also forget, although IT HAS NO BEARING ON THE CASE, that most newspapers have editors who edit these things and computer programs SPECIFICALLY fashioned to pick up "others'" words. Don't ask me why a large newspaper like the Courier did not have their editors do their work, I surely do not know. I can tell you that other newspapers in the area use these programs, as well as Harvard, etc.

The entire school board is ELECTED and RE-ELECTED by the people.

There is nothing positive at this time for anyone. If you want to squeeze out a tiny, tiny degree of positive thinking, maybe Miss H's further education will be paid by the MHS board.

There is nothing to appeal at this time. The school board HAD a chance but chose not to do so. The school board also has the OPTION of not settling, but the costs to them both financially and at re-election time would be extremely costly. Plus, they would LOSE!

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 13:15 pm EDT

You do not know that the school board would have lost had this gone to court. I am assuming that the school district has liability insurance. If so, the distict was most likely required to settle instead of taking this to court. This is not about making some sort of statement. If it is more cost effective to settle instead of fight, that is what the insurance company will want.

Mrs. M.M.: I am going to laugh SO hard when the Blair witch screws you over. You may think that they are your friends, but you had best watch your back.

--posted by cretin @ Monday, July 21 2003, 13:24 pm EDT

You must live in a different Moorestown, NJ than I do. You must only be reading from inaccurate reports. You could be a friend,ally, etc. or the Mirkin family. You could be living in a shell!

You write beautifully, however, your content of information is not only misleading, but downright WRONG.

TM's quote: "As grist for the litigation mill, many of these comments are at best exaggerated and at worst inaccurate." is what I have said over and over - "facts" are inaccuarate and exaggerated.

Your further statement: "no one takes pleasure from the recision of her acceptance to Harvard or her public embarassment." is so out of synch, that I again ask, what Moorestown, N.J. do you live in???? The only thing missing from the "good citizens" of Moorestown upon hearing about Harvard were FIREWORKS to celebrate.


Further, in reference to my remarks: TURN OFF YOUR COMPUTER. Have me fired, brought up on charges. No one twisted your arm to be here!!!!!

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 13:30 pm EDT

Oh, Cretin: First I was Mrs. H., then one of two MHS teachers, then I wasn't a community member, now I should watch my back. What for? Stabbing? From whom? For what? Truth? Friendship? Legal knowledge? Being at the hearing? Knowing Blair and her family?

Cretin: You and I WILL have coffee at Starbucks in the near future. Bring your diapers!

--posted by Mrs, M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 13:33 pm EDT

With the above post, how does Mrs. M. M. expect anyone to blieve that she has any idea about what it is she is talking?

The "hearing" before Judge Wolfson was not an evidentiary hearing. It was a determination of a motion submitted on the papers. There was no opportunity for cross examination. And, as I understand the procedure, there is the opportunity for discovery, which may take the form of oral or written depositions, where the attorneys for the party taking the deposition has the opportunity to ask anyone with knowlege of the matter (watch out Mrs. M. M.) a broad range of questions which are designed to lead to information which may be relevant (note, does not have to be directly relevant) to the trial. In a deposition of BH (almost sure to happen if they persist) she could be asked a whole lot of questions about a whole lot of things on her CV. That's why the lawyers would conduct depositions.

I also am told that interlocutory appeals are very difficult, and, in all practicality, Judge Wolfson's order was not appealable.

Perhaps some lawyer among us can help. Am I right?

--posted by Wondering @ Monday, July 21 2003, 13:35 pm EDT

Oh, and I also understant that credibility is always a relebant issue in any determination of facts. Leaves a lot of room for exploration.

Can you imagine some attorney cross examining HB and the rest of the members of the family? Could lead to some interesting stuff.

--posted by Wondering @ Monday, July 21 2003, 13:55 pm EDT

If you think I am threatened by your disbelief, you must think I was born yesterday.

When Judge Wolfson began the hearing, she allowed the attorneys to make opening statements and then said that she handles "her" court by asking questions. Since she had already studied the briefs previously submitted by each side, she felt that she wanted to ask questions rather than allow each side to orally arugue the merits. She began by asking the plaintiff's attorney, Jacobs. She them proceeded to Comegro, the School Board's attorney. She asked two questions, which I believe, defined the entire proceeding and postured her decision. The first one was whether the School board would consider Miss H to be Valedictorian or a co valedictorian (I have written this over and over and over). Comegro after conferring with Cyndy Wulfsberg, the Board president, said NO. The Judge asked Comegro about a case that HE cited. The Judge then TOLD Comegro that the case he was citing was positive evidence for the PLAINTIFF.
(Find the transcript, and I will be a hero). The Judge after chewing up Comegro and spitting him out asked if there was any other info to be presented by the Defense. Fran Hartman, the attorney for Kenny Mirkin got up and attempted to support Comegro's position. The Judge shut her up rather quickly. The Judge then retired to her chambers for approximately 45 minutes and then came back out with her oral decision, a copy of the written one is online for all to read. My point in all of this: Judge Wolfson chose to ask all questions. She went back and forth among the two lead attorneys when she felt a need.

There was written testimony introducted by both parties. Since this was a TRO hearing, typical TV type testimony of a trial was not heard. As far as depositions of Miss H. - what was she going to be deposed about? Her health, her IEP? Those items were agreed to by the Board of Education several years before. This case was simply - Did the Board of Education of Moorestown High School have the right to change it's Handbook procedures in the middle of a school year?

Judge Wolfson's order WAS appealable.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 14:11 pm EDT

I wonder if things would have turned out differently if the judge hadn't been a friend of the Hornstine family...

--posted by cretin @ Monday, July 21 2003, 14:16 pm EDT

Keep writing, Mrs. M. M., even I now know that you haven't a clue about what you are talking about. Citation to cases are never "evidence." The opportunity for discovery is a matter of right, and cannot be precluded by a judge hearing a matter in "her" court.

The point is that BH never was on a witness stand explaining how she was hurt, and the attorney for the school board never had the opportunity to cross examine her. And about depositions, as I understand the procedure, questions about one's credibility are always appropriate. Do you not think an admitted plagairist would be a witness of questionable credibility?

Where are the lawyers here? Is not my understanding correct?

--posted by Wondering @ Monday, July 21 2003, 14:21 pm EDT

Who is HB? What interesting stuff would be gained by cross examining? If the cross examining were limited to the facts of the case, as is law, none of the gossip or insipid discovery would be uncovered.

I still don't understand why everyone wants to make a mountain out of a molehill. Who cares what color dress she wore, what her Mother cooks, or what garbage is left out. This is what Miss Hornstine did and this is what the School did... who cares if Kadri worked in Trenton before he came to Moorestown? Who cares if Blair wasn't born in Moorestown? When you go beyond the facts or discussion of the specifics of the case, you are treading on fiction and fantasy..

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 14:21 pm EDT

Wondering: You do need to talk to a lawyer. #1. This was a TRO hearing. #2. Plagiarism had nothing to do with the hearing. It did not relate to school work. The plagiarism was discovered AFTER the hearing. Please....

Cretin: You know better. Judge Wolfson and Judge Hornstine was in two different court systems and are not friends. Please do not make up stories to stimulate the crowd with inaccuracies. I know and everyone knows that you think that Blair should not have won this case, but let's stick to facts. You and I both know that their is or was not any friendship between these Judges. Judge Wolfson was probably appointed by the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. She isn't going to give up her future to kowtow to Judge Hornstine. You just like to stimulate my writing and give these posters additional fodder.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 14:28 pm EDT

Once again, Mrs. M.M. makes it clear that she thinks plagiarism is A-OK.

Do you not understand that a history of theft brings one's credibility into question? This is not rocket science. If you equate stealing someone's words and ideas with not being born in Moorestown, it sounds like you need some serious help. Blair's plagiarism is not a rumor. It is not gossip. It is fact.

I'll bring diapers, but it will be you who ends up using them...

--posted by cretin @ Monday, July 21 2003, 14:30 pm EDT

I don't know who HB is. The post above referes to "BH." I think everyone else knows to whom that refers.

At this point, we are getting nowhere. All I know is that, insured or not, the members of the school board up for reelection next time around will have to answer for the position the board takes in this litigation.

--posted by Wondering @ Monday, July 21 2003, 14:35 pm EDT

I know I'll regret this (posting) but...it seems the Hornstine's have as much to gain as the school board from and early/quiet settlement. As long as this stays in the news, Blair could look like trouble to prospective schools. A settlement could allow everyone to save face on some level, especially if a small amount of money is involved. BH can say she won, the school board can say they saved the taxpayers' from monetary harm, etc. Everyone can invoke 'confidentiality' as to the exact amount involved and spin it to their own advantage.

And...despite Mrs. MM protestations that anyone local to Moorestown who would bring up negative info must be a member of the Mirkin camp...the story about the Hornstine's suing over Adam's SAT score is certainly interesting. No, it doesn't have any legal merit for this case but then neither does alot of the things discussed in this forum and it is another piece of the puzzle. Info anyone?

--posted by Amused from Afar @ Monday, July 21 2003, 14:35 pm EDT

Cretin: I do NOT dispute that she plagiarized. Over and Over, I have told you this.

I just rely on the fact that this plagiarizing was discovered AFTER the hearing. I just know that this plagiarizing has NOTHING to do with the law suit filing. This is FACT! It is not Gossip! However it relates to Miss H., it DOES NOT relate to the hearing.

If credibility was the topic of the hearing, I am sure that because of Kadri's actions, the case would have been a slam/dunk one against MHS. Don't forget that Judithann Keefe, the Assistant Superintendent TESTFIED that Kadri LIED. Now, do you want to talk about credibibility? You must know Keefe....Are you prepared to call HER a liar?

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 14:38 pm EDT

Amused: And what kind of black cloud over your family shall we discuss. Something MUST be hidden in the closet that we would want to hear. It could be interesting to all of us, too.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 14:41 pm EDT

I heard that Adam Hornstine received a 1590 (out of 1600) on one of the many occasions that he took the SAT. His father supposedly sued ETS to get the score changed to a 1600. He is thought to have argued that "temporal discrimination" took place - i.e. if Adam had the same number of wrong answers on a different SAT, he could have received a 1600. In other words, the standardization process discrimiated against Adam.

I don't know if this is true, but maybe Mrs. M.M. could help you out more...

I agree that the settlement was the best option for anyone. I don't see it as admittance of guilt on the school board's part. Rather, it is simply the most cost effective way of dealing with this situation.

Mrs. M.M. will undoubtedly say that I am part of the Mirkin camp. Is this supposed to be an insult? I don't know Kenny, BUT I WISH I DID!

--posted by cretin @ Monday, July 21 2003, 14:42 pm EDT

Louis Hornstine is a NJ Superior Judge. What does this mean? Does the state of NJ appoint non-superior judges?

See: http://www.ajs.org/js/NJ_methods.htm

NJ basically has 2 classes of judges. Municipal judges are appointed by local municipalities and handle situations like traffic violations. The other judges (Superior or Supreme) are appointed by the state. There are around 400 Superior Judges.

After an initial 7 year appointment, a Superior Judge if reappointed receives tenure until age 70. It takes a major legislative effort to reprimand or remove a tenured judge.

So it looks like Mr. Hornstine's job is safe though his career may be dead. His behavior may prevent him from being elevated to the 34 member Appellate Division or from being considered for the 7 member Supreme Court.

--posted by MonkeyBrains @ Monday, July 21 2003, 14:49 pm EDT

The first paragraph you write about Adam's SAT test is absolutely, unequivocally an untruth. This, again, is spreading a falsehood. I am 1600% sure that your information is incorrect.

I THINK that the School board HAS TO settle in order to get out of a bad situation and save money. No matter what you think or say, the school did lose and they are subject to these financial damages. It doesn't hurt Blair to settle, but if you ask me (and you didn't), I believe that the school has more to gain financially and in public opinion polls, by settling and getting on with the business of running Moorestown schools. Don't forget the teachers' contract coming up.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 14:57 pm EDT

Monkeybrains: You also left out one important fact among judges. They must be appointed or elevated by the political party they belong to. If "your" party is not the controlling party in the State of New Jersey, or if "your" party has not been in control or elected the governor for many years, you can sit on your tussy for many years before you can be considered for elevation. So, you can be the best Judge in the world and not advance.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 15:02 pm EDT

The school did not lose. No judge ruled that the school must pay up. Please stop spreading falsehoods! I agree that it is in the school's best interest to get this over with. Insurance companies know that it costs more money to fight things like this. That's why so many people sue in the first place - because they know they will get *something*.

If you had actually read my post, you would know that I did not know whether my first paragraph was true. Thanks for clearing that up.

--posted by cretin @ Monday, July 21 2003, 15:06 pm EDT

This is all very sad. You guys arguing who should and who shouldn't be the valedictorian etc.

The truth is that here we have a smart (probably brilliant) young girl whose emotional, moral and perhaps physical life was sacrificed on the altar of her father's pathological social aspirations. the guy just couldn't leave his daughter live her life as a normal teenager

It is hard to say whether this is a Jewish thing or not but everything seems to be getting a bit polarized here

--posted by whose the victim @ Monday, July 21 2003, 15:07 pm EDT

MRS M.M.: Won't the Hornstines also save money for legal expenses by settling? Or are the rumors true that all of their lawyers are donating their services as a favor?

--posted by MonkeyBrains @ Monday, July 21 2003, 15:07 pm EDT

mrs mm you state: “but it is clear to anyone with any knowledge of the law, (me, too) that the school board could have or would have challenged the tiniest word in Judge Wolfson's decision” – i guarantee you the school board will challenge the judge’s opinion (it is an opinion and not a decision) when/if there is a court hearing. they will seek to prove that there is no rightful claim of discrimination. it will be up to a jury to decide if the school discriminated against blair – and thus agree or disagree with the judge’s opinion. the judge’s opinion is not the final “say” in this matter. it has still yet to be determined if the school did anything wrong. you need to understand the process of law here.

the school board has no timeframe in which it "needs" to bring this affair to closure. this matter could go on for years. it is my belief that it is highly likely that the school’s liability insurance will cover this…and any timing of a settlement or a trial process has no influence whatsoever on teachers’ salaries, etc. your point is totally irrelevant – like most of your points – misinformed.

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 15:08 pm EDT

I *heard* that the mob lawyer's services are pro bono. Mrs. M.M., you're needed...

--posted by cretin @ Monday, July 21 2003, 15:10 pm EDT

Thanks, Cretin, for the info. Jeeze, wasn't a 1590 good enough? You have been bashed on this site for getting hot under the collar but unlike some of the frequent posters, I believe you are who you say you are. I'm a fan.

--posted by Amused from Afar @ Monday, July 21 2003, 15:10 pm EDT

Amused, I might be mistaken. Mrs. M.M. thinks so. I'm not saying that she is right, but I could definitely be wrong.

--posted by cretin @ Monday, July 21 2003, 15:14 pm EDT

Mrs. M. M., you make my point. Judge Wolfson merely decided that, based on what was before her at the time, MHS could not prevent BH from being the sole valedictorian. She did not decide liability or damages. That has yet to happen, and it is on those issues that BH will have to present proofs through testimony and exhibits admitted into evidence. Attorneys for the BOE have a right to conduct "discovery" on those issues. That means they have a right to find out all about BH's case before trial, and that especially includes depositions.

Precisely because the BOE must consider the upconing contract negotiations they should not be inclined to settle for anything more than a nominal award. Judge Wolfson's comments on how BH may have been hurt bear no weight in the final determination of the level of damages.

What BH won was only the right to be the sole valedictorian on graduation day. AND THAT IS ALL SHE WON! There is more to come, if BH chooses to continue the fight. It is all in her hands, since she is the plaintiff.

Since the BOE is a public body, the terms of a settlement, including the amount, I believe, will be public information. If it is more than nominal, negotiations with the teachers will be all the more difficult.

I am sure that there are schools out there which would be happy to admit a prospective student who shows a propensity to sue if she is unhappy with the result of an evaluation of her talents, but I am at a loss to think of which schools they might be.

--posted by Wondering @ Monday, July 21 2003, 15:17 pm EDT

Thanks anyway, Cretin. Whose the Victim touched on something I posted the last time I ventured on this site. If I had a fatigued/ill daughter who could not attend school, the last thing I would do would be to have her fill her days with resume-building charity drives, writing newspaper articles, etc. Now she is the center of what has to be a stressful lawsuit. Does she have anything that is unplanned or just for fun? Uh, besides walks with Dad. Any friends at all? I don't think anyone questions that she is bright and probably gifted but what is the toll of all this on her health? You can't have it both ways, either she is medically fragile and being driven too hard or the condition was a convience for grade building. Or maybe the grade building made her medically fragile.

--posted by Amused from Afat @ Monday, July 21 2003, 15:32 pm EDT

that's convenience "the condition was a convenience..."

--posted by Amused from Afar @ Monday, July 21 2003, 15:36 pm EDT

I agree with you completely, Amused. You make a very good point.

--posted by cretin @ Monday, July 21 2003, 15:38 pm EDT

MRS M.M.: If you look at the link I gave,

http://www.ajs.org/js/NJ_methods.htm

you can note that Governor Whitman appointed to the Supreme Court 2 Democrats, 1 Independent, and 1 Republican. So you are wrong to claim that appointments are strictly along party lines. I'm guessing that Louis Hornstine is a Republican. And your posting sounds link whining that he is being discriminated against because he is a Republican.

--posted by MonkeyBrains @ Monday, July 21 2003, 15:42 pm EDT

Right on. Who will teach this girl how to have friends, how to appreciate nature, how to relax and how to love? How to be happy?

The problem i have with Louis Hornstine is that he taught Blair that selfishness makes you happy. This is the neocon agenda, it is also what the Republicans are preaching these days and I think it is a bad thing.

--posted by Whose the Victim @ Monday, July 21 2003, 15:44 pm EDT

Whose-I think you are taking it a little far. This is just a young girl who seems to been driven or been allow to drive herself beyond the limits of her health in order to achieve the #1 spot. Achievement is good, don't get me wrong. I'd take 100 kids like Blair, Kenny and the #3 guy any day over the unwed mothers, gang-bangers, etc. than you see in many public schools. It is the lawsuit that put this story before us all and the issue of disability.

--posted by Amused from Afar @ Monday, July 21 2003, 15:56 pm EDT

I have watched this, and joined in, only to have my heritage, my name, my business, my veracity, and my integrity bantered about like it was nothing.

The TRO had nothing to do with plagiarism, alleged or otherwise.

In Discovery, should BH or the BOE point out that JFK was a plagiarist, or Martin Luther King, Jr., or Ted Kennedy, or George Washington, or God only knows how many sports writers and columnists? Should they point out that in his Doctorial Thesis, MLK, Jr. plagiarized over 60% of his writing? Should they point out that his "I Have a Dream" speech was lifted nearly word for word from a racist’s poem?

Or should they stick to the issues in the case?

BH has been tried in the court of public opinion, and she has lost. Up to this point, her Court of Law dalliances have been rather to her benefit.

Blair's plagiarism has cost her admission to Harvard, regardless of whether she withdrew, or Harvard rescinded her application. But her plagiarism is not in the domain of the case, and the School Board, upon using it as such, or using the information about it as justification to reconsider her school work if butting up against the fruit of the poisoned tree, and will most likely find itself battling that if they proceed along those lines.

Plagiarism was not one of the grounds the BOE used to defend its merit less case. It can not now be added after the fact.

The attacks on her family, its credibility, and the repeated assaults on her character, and the actions of the community did as much to create this situation as she did. She tried to do this without the TRO, and the board simply didn't want to give her what she had earned. The board changed the rules, and had them thrown back in their collective faces. Those are the facts, and it doesn't matter if you don't like them.

For wondering, who said this was a case about plagiarism, nothing could be further from the truth, it is not about plagiarism, it is about discrimination in the face of clear cut rules to the contrary. You have this habit of jumping up and saying she did this or did that, and to be sure, she plagiarized, but what she did has no bearing, is not relevant, and does not belong in a discussion about this case. The issue, the only issue was discrimination, not plagiarism, and it certainly isn't about who is more popular.

Now, until the facts change, if you all want to discuss the FACTS, so be it, until you discuss the FACTS, don't be surprised when you get your self electronically slapped over things that have no bearing in the case, and no basis in the discussion.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, July 21 2003, 16:09 pm EDT

wondering - you raise some interesting questions and fascinating points. thanks.

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 16:13 pm EDT

S D-S, have you recently moved, or gone on vacation?

I noticed that you posted that you've just gone kayaking down the Gunnison. That's certainly a lovely area--Colorado's just generally a beautiful state.

But from the looks of it, you're situated in Ohio.

Road trip?

--posted by Just curious @ Monday, July 21 2003, 16:16 pm EDT

Hey, S. D-S, did you notice that BH is suing the school district for some $2.7M (probably not a lot of money to you) for damages. BH's credibiity is always in issue, as long as she continues to pursue the case. The fact that she used others' material without attribution bears upon her credibility. The question of whether she should have been the sole valedictorian is now mooted, but she persists.

I am sure the lawyers on both sides of this case understand her credibility is an issue, even if you don't. Bet she'll settle for a quarter before she submits to examination under deposition.

--posted by Wondering @ Monday, July 21 2003, 16:19 pm EDT

Uh oh. You are going to get your head bitten off! He's on a network that is located in Ohio. Take cover, Just curious!!!

S.Douglas-Smith, I agree that this fiasco was about discrimination. We just disagree as to who was discriminated against.

--posted by cretin @ Monday, July 21 2003, 16:20 pm EDT

wondering - you are asking the right questions ... and your understanding of the law is fine. mrs hh stil thinks that the judge's opinion was and is a finding of fact - when it was merely the issuance of a temporary restraining order. you are right in that no evidentiary hearings have occured, no findings of facts, no depositions, no cross examinations, etc. those are yet to come. furthermoe, nothing is up for appeal, since no judgement has been rendered - by a judge or a jury. it has not been established "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the school system discriminated against blair. a trial is needed to do such. if a settlement is agreed upon - no fault will be determined, since no judgement will have been rendered. mrs mm still doesn't understand the basics of law. and- cretin makes a good point: "I am assuming that the school district has liability insurance....This is not about making some sort of statement. If it is more cost effective to settle instead of fight, that is what the insurance company will want."

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 16:26 pm EDT

btw - judge's opinions - and even decisions get overtutned all of the time. that's why we have a legal system that allows for appeals. hey - even the supreme court justics can't always agree - hence the reason for a court of last resort. judge's are people, too. they are fallible...they also have different interpretations of the law. it is not a given that the judge's issuance of a restraining order in the horstine affair is above sanctity - and beyond the scope of a jury disagreeing.

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 16:28 pm EDT

[judges']

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 16:29 pm EDT

btw - a jury could find for the school system (thereby disagreeing with the injunctive relief and the judge's opinion)- and subsequently agree that naming co-valedictorians is appropriate. so ... it is not moot that blair will retain the status of sole valedictorian.

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 16:42 pm EDT

S D-S: wrote "Blair's plagiarism has cost her admission to Harvard".

Nobody but the Harvard Administration knows why her admission was rescinded and they correctly are not commenting.

Maybe on further examination they thought she would be likely to flunk out. Maybe they thought suits against Harvard would be likely. Maybe they found fraud in her application. Maybe in their last meeting they asked her a question and she responded by bursting into tears and throwing a screaming tantrum, and then accused them of discrimination.

--posted by MonkeyBrains @ Monday, July 21 2003, 16:53 pm EDT

Whose:"The truth is that here we have a smart (probably brilliant) young girl whose emotional, moral and perhaps physical life was sacrificed on the altar of her father's pathological social aspirations. " If you know Judge Hornstine, you would absolutely know he is not on any social circuit or is socially involved. He only non work activites include exercising and his children. He AVOIDS social settings as much as possible. If this were a "Jewish" thing, I think he would be more socially involved. Is a "Jewish thing "a form of your anti-semitism?

"Governor Whitman appointed to the Supreme Court 2 Democrats..." one was a favor; the other someone she previously worked with.

Monkey and others: No legal fees? That's amusing, very amusing. I don't think ANY of these lawyers consider this a charity case. Hornstines will pay.

And to the legal contributors here: The school board is P R E S S I N G for settlement. They have offered financial settlement. It is just a matter of time now to see HOW MUCH THEY PAY. Stay tuned.
If this case does not settle, Judge Wolfson will STILL have the jurisdiction to preside unless the parties involved seek other venue. There has not been any request for a JURY trial. It behooves the school board to promptly settle this claim....and it looks as if they will shortly. Don't forget that the disabled and discrimination "lobbies" would support Miss H. and thereby, make more of an "a** of the school, if this goes further. They could also nitpik at the school board to add or change facilities that they (the lobby) think are lacking for the disabled at the school. The Hornstine faction has NEVER, NOT, etc. requested a specific sum of money from the Board DURING THESE settlement conferences. The Board began these talks and made the initial inquiry into dollar amounts needed to settle.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 17:13 pm EDT

I "believe" although I am not 100% positive (but pretty sure) that Harvard sent or discussed an apology for allowing word of the rescinding to go public. They (Harvard) referred this situation to their Legal counsel.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 17:15 pm EDT

This whole mess arises out of a conflict between traditional school mechanisms and the emphasis placed on a student's right to privacy. A school system which names a valedictorian, salutatorian, etc, is necessarily violating that privacy to some degree, by exposing class rankings. Is the valedictorian system, therefore, even possible today? Or will school systems decide that it's not worth the trouble?

In addition, let's all remember that town gossip is not reliable. I see many posters who are willing to condemn many people caught up in this public tussle, merely on the unsubstantiated statements of anonymous posters. When there are two equally possible interpretations of the state of affairs, please don't jump to the most uncharitable one. There are many very competitive students in American high schools who have not been driven to it by their parents. Merely supporting their children in their school career does not make the Judge and his wife monsters.

In addition, I see a great deal of vitriol aimed at the family because they are supposed to be "rich." According to a publication from the New Jersey Legislature in 2000, "the annual salary of a Judge of the Superior Court is $141,000." (www.njleg.state.nj.us/2000/Bills/S1000/553_E1.PDF) I would venture to say that, while this is a goodly sum, many lawyers in private practice earn much more money. By becoming a judge, in other words, Judge Hornstine gave up the chance to earn more money, in order to perform a public service.

--posted by MA reader @ Monday, July 21 2003, 17:19 pm EDT

Some of you also refer to the Judge's decision being overturned. If the Moorestown school board had an inkling of positive thoughts that this decision could or would be overturned, they would have filed a challenge or appeal. They lost. Now they need to protect themselves, the school, Kadri and cut their losses.

Will liability insurance cover discrimination claims? Just Kadri? Will the school have to fork over $$?

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 17:23 pm EDT

MA reader: Another very intelligent poster heard from. MA also gets it. Poor Ma, you get to be put on the short list with S.D-S and me. Sorry. Your post here is a breath of fresh air.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 17:26 pm EDT

antisemitism? Whoa...... easy on the slander, MM

I see Hornstin as the bad guy, he has literally destroyed his daughter's life with his pathological (as in BATHOS and LOGIC) drive. This was not about her, it was about HIMSELF (go read RD Laing on the profile of this kinda person).

Amused: I think this is a clear in-the-field example of what the neocons are trying to do in this country. Taking the care only of themselves and their own. I can see how the community (and even casual readers) might want to blame Blair yet I am convinced this is not fair. Is it her fault that she was born in a deranged family who praises scholarly "achievement" over life itself?

--posted by Whose the Victim @ Monday, July 21 2003, 17:41 pm EDT

Ma.

Fair enough.

I'll only say this: Blair seems to have been led to believe that being a valedictorian justifies ruining your high school years (which, after all, are supposed to be about enjoying life) and becoming a friendless and universally despised teen. Who did she get these values from? By looking at the posts here it seems to be pretty clear.

For Heaven's Sake. Hornstin is a Judge. He must have known that the lawsuit was going to destroy his daughter. Allowing her to proceed with it (or perhaps goading her into it) he made some very bad karma for himself.

--posted by Whose the Victim @ Monday, July 21 2003, 17:50 pm EDT

Why do you suppose, Mrs. M. M., that you are on that very short list?

Is it because we know who you really are? Or, do you think it is because of the stuff you say here?

Why do you suppose it is that this case has provoked such scorn from all over the country?

Come election time, I will consider the GRIP (Get Rid of Incumbent Politicians) response if this school board caves. I wonder how far BH will push this? Why does she not simply withdraw her law suit?

--posted by Wondering @ Monday, July 21 2003, 17:58 pm EDT

Blair has made it across the pond to the Guardian in the UK. The story is just a rehash but here is the link anyway:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1002231,00.html

--posted by MonkeyBrains @ Monday, July 21 2003, 18:09 pm EDT

again, mrs mm ... you say "Some of you also refer to the Judge's decision being overturned. If the Moorestown school board had an inkling of positive thoughts that this decision could or would be overturned, they would have filed a challenge or appeal. They lost."

the school district has not "lost" yet ... and can not file an appeal until they have been found to be "guilty" of discrimination. they have not be found "guilty" yet. no trial has yet occurred. no decision - or finding of law has been determined. that is yet to come. the judge's opinion (read: opinion ... and not judgement; not finding....but, opinion) can indeed be overturned, if and when a jury were to rule that there is no discrimination in this case.

furthermore ... to follow what jeffrey toobin (of new yorker magazine and cnn) maintains - that the hornstines are abusing and grossly misusing the ADA lawss ... it could be that no lobby or organization for the disbled will want to get involved in this case (i.e. choose not to file an amicus brief) - as the entire affair might be ruled by the jury as an inappropriate interpretation of the laws set out to protect the disabled.

at this juncture i think it is worth reposting toobin's words - yet again...

"...this federal lawsuit, it seems to me, is absolutely ridiculous. Let's talk about some of the reasons why I think this story is ridiculous. First, don't make a federal case out of it. It's what parents teach their kids about all sorts of things. This is simply not a justified use of the federal court's limited time and resources. Second, no damages. What did she suffer here? She's the co- valedictorian. It is simply not something that the legal system should address, much less $2.7 million in punitive damages....And third, lack of gratitude. This school district, the taxpayers of this school district paid to have tutors sent to this girl's home, because she has a disability, which she's entitled to do, but it was a very expensive project for the school district. She shouldn't be suing....She's claiming that she's discriminated against because she's disabled. And I think it trivializes the very valuable Americans With Disabilities Act and that whole principle, because this is not what it's about. It's about keeping people out of jobs, it's about depriving people of money damages. I mean, that's the kind of thing the ADA was passed to correct. This is trivia and nonsense and it should be thrown out....she ought to do her lessons in school, not in court."

(http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0305/08/ltm.10.html)

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 18:18 pm EDT

mrs mm... to answer your question...i suspect that kadri is covered by the school's liability insurance. he is an "agent" of the school system ... and is thus likely indemnified from personal liability. in any case, his employment contract is likely very explicit on limiting his liability relative to his public school system responsibilties and related actions.

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 18:23 pm EDT

Whose the victim

By the standards the school set, Blair Hornstine WAS the valedictorian. An attempt to set her aside, or to force her to share, that status, was discriminatory. She may have started the lawsuit to protect herself against unfair discrimination, and her father may have had no objections, because she did have the highest grade point average. He may even have felt that it would be useful for an aspiring lawyer to get a view of the court system from the plaintiff's seat.

Note, the school's standards for valedictorian were debatable. Why is phys ed a graded course, and why is it included in the average? It is probably a relic from an earlier age, before anyone had ever heard of special arrangements for the disabled. I would suggest that the town should revisit the standards, and set a new system, if they must have one at all. Say, the student's 7 (pick a number) highest grades in academic courses are considered, and an F, or C (choose a letter grade) in any course, whether in those 7 or not, will disqualify the candidate. If more than one student qualifies as valedictorian, then the more the merrier. It won't be the old, elitist set-up, but it will also remove the incentive to take extra classes to get a leg up on the class ranking. Kids who want to take more courses should be allowed to do so--and I would bet that some will.

To the outsider, it may seem that the Hornstines "gamed" the current system, but it is equally probable that the advantage Blair Hornstine enjoyed comes from the fact that the system is not set up for a home schooled/public schooled candidate. There is also no conclusive proof that she is not disabled. Ask yourself, were she suffering from cerebral palsy, or were she a paraplegic, would this blog even exist?

The right to privacy, oddly, actually harms the family in the face of such a disability, as ill-humored people can speculate as they wish, and the doctors and teachers who know the student best cannot defend her. I doubt that, before the suit, anyone had the courage to beard the Judge, and challenge him about his daughter's condition.

Judge Hornstine would have dissuaded his daughter from the suit, had he known of the plagiarism. To this point, Miss Hornstine has suffered the greatest damage from this suit.

--posted by MA reader @ Monday, July 21 2003, 18:27 pm EDT

mrs mm before you disparage mr. toobin ... and try and cast aspersions on him...let me post his qualifications:

"Jeffrey Toobin is a staff writer at The New Yorker, the legal analyst at ABC News, and the author of the critically acclaimed bestsellers A Vast Conspiracy: The Real Story of the Sex Scandal That Nearly Brought Down a President and The Run of His Life: The People v. O.J. Simpson. He served as an assistant United States attorney in Brooklyn and as an associate counsel in the office of independent counsel Lawrence E. Walsh--which provided the basis for his book Opening Arguments: A Young Lawyer's First Case--United States Supreme Court v. Oliver North. He is a magna cum laude graduate of Harvard Law School. Toobin lives in New York City with his wife and two children." (http://www.randomhouse.com/randomhouse/catalog/display.pperl?0375761071)

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 18:31 pm EDT

Will Mrs. M. M. take on Jeffrey Toobin? Does she believe he is one of the conspirators out to get her, and to discredit her precious BH?

Stay tuned folks, now thate this thing is really international, we may have gotten a sponsor. This soap opera has legs for at least one good season, maybe two. Will BH pursue the law suit? Will she find meaning in life at East Armpit Community College? Will she fall in love with someone other than herself? Will Tony kill Pauli? (whoops, wrong show) Will the BOE candidates get reelected? Will Moorestown buy out Kadri's contract? Will the teachers go on strike? Will Mrs. M. M. be offered a major supporting role?

Boy, there is enough here for a couple of seasons!

--posted by Wondering @ Monday, July 21 2003, 18:34 pm EDT

MA reader: you offer an interesting proposal – and I agree that Moorestown should take a look at “reforming” their process and definition for valedictorian and salutatorian status. Regarding the right of privacy … I am curious as to what the judge meant in her opinion when she threw out the hornstine's claim for privacy when she states: Plaintiff has also brought an invasion of privacy claim under the Family Education Rights and Privacy Act, 20 U.S.C. § 1232g. The Supreme Court has held, however, that there is no private right of action under this Act. See Gonzaga Univ. v. Doe, 536 U.S. 273, 290 (2002). Therefore, this claim will not be considered…” (http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/fed/html/ca03-1953-1.html#Footref5).

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Monday, July 21 2003, 18:38 pm EDT

"A clever girl is destroyed. Why? Because her parents pushed her; her school pushed her; the whole educational system pushed her. They call it the quest for excellence. I call it child abuse." (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1002231,00.html)

--posted by cambridgema @ Monday, July 21 2003, 18:46 pm EDT

Exactly what I've been saying, Cambridgema. Maybe it was Blair driving herself and not her parents but then did she ever hear, "Honey, your're working too hard, why don't you take it easy and get some rest?" Anyway you slice it, some adult should have helped her balance her life. Achievement is commendable in a young person but not if the cost is her health.

--posted by Amused from Afar @ Monday, July 21 2003, 18:58 pm EDT

I think Mrs. MM is correct in stating that the School Board could have appealed the granting of the TRO but they did not. It may not have been worth the expense. They still have what I believe is the case in which the Hornstines seek damages and this must be based on laws other than the ADA and Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act because, as I understand these, punitive damages are not available. My guess is that the damage claims are based on the NJ Law Against Discrimination which has not been heard, and which is probably the subject of settlement talks. This is complicated because we are not dealing with one legal theory for recovery.

Ma reader is right in noting the salaries of Superior Court Judges and it does not make one "rich." But often, and I believe this is the case with Judge Hornstine, years of practicing law prior to the judicial appointment can do the trick. The Hornstines have the resources to pursue many wrongs legally and they should not be criticized for their wealth. The debate as to whether this is an appropriate way to use the law, however, is quite justified and Toobin does a good job of framing the issues regarding this.

--posted by DM @ Monday, July 21 2003, 19:02 pm EDT

I also agree that this story should be a cautionary tale to parents about excessive academic, athletic and social pressure on kids. This is a form of abuse.

--posted by DM @ Monday, July 21 2003, 19:07 pm EDT

You "could" be right that the Hornstines' gamed the system, but IF they did, it was up to the school to reject it before it started or at least some time along the 3-4 years Blair was schooled. Judge H did not invent the course, the teachers or the system. The entire case is whether the school changed rules in mid-stream - which they did. I am sure that incoming Freshmen will be subjected to new rules on determining a valedictorian.

I have not taken on Jeffrey Toobin. I have heard his commentary, read it here over and over and commented on it ions ago.I don't say he is right or wrong. As I have said many times previously, he has a right to an opinion. My only argument with him is that he has one fact incorrect. She was never offered the co-valedictorianship.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 19:07 pm EDT

Amused From Afar: you and I are in agreement. Let me my comments of July 17

: "“Miss Hornstine has a father that is one of those typical pushy types trying to force his overachieving child into achieving ever more and stopping at nothing, perhaps including taking advantage of obscure regulations, to "win" the brass ring probably as much for himself as for his daughter, Blair.” (http://www.americandaily.com/item/1401).

I hold Judge Hornstine responsbile for trying to 'game the system'. His Pyrrhic victory came back to haunt him and his daughter. "

--posted by cambridgema @ Monday, July 21 2003, 19:11 pm EDT

...let me repost my comments of July 17 ...

--posted by cambridgema @ Monday, July 21 2003, 19:12 pm EDT

Why Judge Hornstine? Why not Mrs. Hornstine? Why not another member of the family?

For those who want to read Doe vs. Gonzaga Univ.
http://www.securityoncampus.org/lawyers/doevgonzaga.html

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 19:14 pm EDT

S D-S, have you recently moved, or gone on vacation?

I noticed that you posted that you've just gone kayaking down the Gunnison. That's certainly a lovely area--Colorado's just generally a beautiful state.

But from the looks of it, you're situated in Ohio.

Road trip?

--posted by Just curious @ Monday, July 21 2003, 16:16 pm EDT


Well Just Curious, as you have so astutely noted I have an Ohio IP, which was addressed in this blog some time ago.

I use a satellite to communicate to my office in Dayton Ohio, and that communication is then routed via servers for Time Warner Inc., in Cincinnati to where ever I am surfing at at the time. Because my IP trail if you will, starts in Ohio, you would think that, unless you had taken the time to read the post regarding IP's IP sharing, and various other IP information that came up long before you ever came along. However, so that you can avoid the hassle of looking for it, I have copied and pasted it here for you.

By the way, the Gunnison was wonderful.

below is the link to the first page of comments where you'll find the comment in question, however, like I said, I had addressed it long before you ever reared your head, read first, then we won't have to be bothered with redundant questions, and statements that have NO bearing on the issue at hand.

http://www.tow.com/photogallery/20030607_blair/comments.shtml

Here is the post:

'...Well, it was a thought...

Starbucks! (Insert stunned emoticon here). We have a Molly's Coffee and Beer, is that close enough? You have to go to Apen or Vail for a Starbucks around here, and I love my coffee, (even have Kona flown in from Hawaii), but I'm not driving for 3 flippen hours for a cup, unless, you two relent and take me up on my offer, then, heck, I can point out all the interesting geological formations on the way.

I want to point out a couple of things: 152.163.252.162 is the IP Address of Mrs. MM from Adam wayyyyyyyyyyyy back up there when he thought, (maybe still does) that several posters were actually posting from one location. A trace route on that IP address resolves to an AOL Server on the East Coast, specifically cache-RH02.proxy.aol.com an AOL server in Philly. Traveling through VA. to an AOL Transit Data Network ATDN. This is a broad band server that services the NJ area, Delaware, and parts of PA, North East Va, and Maryland. You can conduct a traceroute of this or any IP at http://visualroute.visualware.com/ and by entering the IP location you want to trace.

This is not an infallible test. Should anyone conduct a route trace on my IP, it resolves back to a Time Warner Broad Band Server in Cincinatti, Ohio. Of course I'm in Colorado so how is this possible? Simple, I use a satellite uplink from my home via DirectWay to link directly to my business servers in Ohio because that is where the company was founded. Because I use a ported address to my business, it appears that my souce is actually in Ohio. Since satellite broadband is in fact a wireless connection, the original hardwired server that it orginates from is in Ohio, and not in Colorado. What this means, is that while not many people have such connections, the fact of the matter is that it is possible to generally trace the location of a poster.

Given that Mrs. MM's IP is in the general vicinity of Moorestown it is likely that she is from that area. There are methods and expensive software that will resolve a host down to a local system, however firewalls and other protection software, and hardware make it difficult to finally resolve the location of a poster based on the IP address alone.

This information does however, partially invalidate Cretin's claim that Mrs. MM is from some other area, and it also tends to validate her claim that she is from Moorestown, or at least the general vicinity.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Friday, July 4 2003, 16:16 pm EDT..."

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, July 21 2003, 19:14 pm EDT

What if...Blair were white and the second place student were black? (and they took the same number of courses, and Blair did not have a disability) What if...their grades were very close, but Blair placed ahead of the next student. What if school officials were to argue that they should be co-valedictorians because Blair benefitted from the (unconscious) tendency of certain teachers to give a white student a better grade. Would you be in favor of this sort of discrimination, if it were framed as an attempt to correct an injustice?

In the "real world", the attempt to rewrite the rules on valedictorians, after Blair placed first, can only be seen as an attempt to be "fair." This "fairness," however, implies, in an underhanded way, that the Hornstines cheated. Would Kadri et al. have attempted to change the rules in midstream, had another student placed first?

The school set the rules for settling class rank. The school accepted that Blair Hornstine was disabled. Before this fiasco, someone on the school's side should have realized that school policies need to be reviewed from time to time. We may blame the Hornstines for turning to the courts, but where else were they to turn? The school administration had access to Blair's records. If they felt that she had cheated, they should have taken the legal steps to challenge that classification.

Had the Hornstines agreed to the proposed co-valedictory scheme, that might have left the impression that they were afraid of being "found out."

As an aside, why do I detect an undertone in some comments that "she should be grateful the system did so much for her, and sit down and shut up?" The schools across America make accomodations for a multitude of students, with many different disabilities. I don't remember hearing anywhere that they thereby give up their rights to be equal participants in the education system.

--posted by MA reader @ Monday, July 21 2003, 19:35 pm EDT

For Cretin, since the post in question was related to you, I'm surprised that you forgot, in fact, I'd wager that you simply decided to ignore it, thinking I would becasue OMG, I might have been caught up in the truth or something equally assinine.

For Just Wondering, I am fully aware of the credibility issues now facing Blair, and I'm fully aware that lots of people will want to use it as a hammer to pound her even deeper into the hole that she dug for herself with the plagiarism, but as it relates to this case, it is a seperate issue, and would be disallowed by any compentent judge, much the way the disallow testimony about previous convictions not relevant to a specific charge, IE, grand theft vs kidnapping so long as the grand theft didn't involve car jacking, it is very likely that a judge would not allow testimony about the previous conviction.

Thus, and I reiterate, Just Wondering, the plagiarism is not what this case is about, and it's doubious as to whether or not it would be allowed to be heard as a credibility issue, or impeachment as it is not the subject or the by product of the actual litigation.

Now, as to Harvard recinding Blair's addmission, and Monkey Brains, I'll say this, it's obvious to me, and to most generally educated people that the reasons for recinding the admission are not based on the law suit where to this point Blair has prevailed. This being the case, it is more likely that several factors were considered as justification, from the hostility of the campus, to the fact that they didn't like the way that she looked in her blue dress, but the legal (according to Harvard's standards), justification for recinding the application is the obvious plagiarism that would bring her credibility into question, and which would justify recinding her application. Certainly the fact that they didn't like her dress didn't play into it.

If you want to question reasonable statements that in fact generally agree with you Monkey Brains, I'd say you have a problem with a person, personally, and not with the language, or the soundness of their posts.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, July 21 2003, 19:39 pm EDT

Question: isn’t a temporary restraining order (TRO) sought only in those situations when a time element is crucial to a legal claim? In Blair’s case the impending graduation – and the desire of the Hornstine’s to have Blair be named “sole valedictorian” for the event was the driver of them seeking a TRO. Am I right in also understanding that you can’t challenge a TRO – for the practical reason that time is the limiting factor? As far as I understand it, the Judge’s Opinion is an “interpretation” of case law – and it was her opinion that the plaintiff (in this case, Blair) would “likely prevail” in a future trial, thereby she granted the TRO.

The case now moves into the trial phase ("Hornstine’s case — and her request for damages - remains in litigation pending either a settlement or a jury trial. The two parties will meet before a judge August 13 to discuss further proceedings..." (http://www.thecrimson.harvard.edu/today/article348498.html); “The trial phase of Blair's lawsuit will unfold slowly over the coming months…” (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/852lodkv.asp).

A judge and/or jury will hear evidence in the case; will then rule one way or the other. A finding for Blair would result in the jury agreeing with the judge’s opinion and the school system being found to be liable for discrimination. Whether or not damages would then be assessed requires a separate determination that the school’s actions did indeed “damage” Blair and that “damage” is deserving of compensation. It’s not always a clear-cut path from finding of discrimination to compensatory damages being granted. On the other side, a finding for Kadri/Moorestown School System would invalidate the judge’s opinion and would uphold the school’s prerogative to appoint multiple valedictorians.

As far as I understand it – there has been no ruling, no guilt or innocence established, no right to damages yet assessed. A trial will determine all of that. We can all speculate as to how we think it might go; how we'd like t osee it go ... but, in the end a judge and/or jury, having heard the case will determine the outcome. if a settlement is reached before this goes to trial...we'll never really know what a trial's eventual findings would be.

The parties are now in settlement talks. I suspect that the Horstines might want a settlement, so as to spare Blair – and themselves – from the intense scrutiny and interrogatory investigations that will be part of the deposition and pre-trial preparation – not to mention what lines of inquiry will be followed in court. I suspect that Kadri and the school system will also want to settle – to limit damages (which any insurance company holding a liability policy will advocate) and to get the affair behind them.

--posted by cambridgema @ Monday, July 21 2003, 19:48 pm EDT

cambridgema: If the Hornstines are sensible, they will want a settlement. Some people, however, choose to sue out of principle, and look to the courts for Justice , when they feel they have been wronged. [Justice in the courts? o.k., any lawyers reading will start laughing at this point.]

If Blair Hornstine brought this suit under her own steam, what are the chances that a teenager in the throes of righteous indignation will back down?

--posted by MA reader @ Monday, July 21 2003, 20:01 pm EDT

MA reader: Regarding "justice in the courts" ... I have served on a couple of juries ... and was the jury foreman for a federal case here in Boston that lasted for six weeks. After five days of deliberation ... I honestly think - in retrospect - some of my fellow jurors capitulated to the majority view, just so that they could get the case over with. When I think about it now...I'm really not sure justice was served ... and whether or not I, as jury foreman, should have pushed for a mistrial. It bothers me to this day.

--posted by cambridgema @ Monday, July 21 2003, 20:06 pm EDT

“A temporary restraining order is typically issued in circumstances where immediate action is called for. Courts often issue "TRO’s" based on affidavits from a person whose interests are about to be harmed. For example, if you people with chainsaws are about to cut down your trees, the court would be in a hurry to act , before giving the other side a chance to reply.

A preliminary injunction is usually issued only after the other side has been given an opportunity to reply and be heard, and has either consented to maintain the status quo or not made a sufficient showing to defeat the plaintiff’s claims. A permanent injunction is typically issued after a full trial of the merits, or on the consent or default of the other side.”

(http:www.law.freeadvice.com/general_practice/legal_remedies/restraining_order.htm+%22temporary+restraining+order%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

Ah … so since a TRO was issued in the Hornstine case, the “other side” has an opportunity yet to reply and be heard. “A full trial of the merits, or on the consent or default of the other side” has yet to come.

--posted by cambridgema @ Monday, July 21 2003, 20:17 pm EDT

I do not understand why the Hornstine family is pursuing this lawsuit. If it was merely about principal, then this should all be over; the restraining order was issued. Instead, it continues and continues to stay in the news. No matter where Blair may or may not go to school, I assure you she will not have a pleasant time. The family has created a tremendous amount of ill will not only in her home town but also at Harvard. Such sentiments will again rear their ugly head where ever she ends up. Stuff like this spreads like wildfire between college campuses thanks to the internet.

--posted by surlygrad @ Monday, July 21 2003, 20:43 pm EDT

Oh Ma, you are so smart. I want to remind some and particularly you (although some do not believe it, but can find it out definitively by reading the hearing transcript) that Kadri had no intention of making Blair a co Valdictorian. She was NEVER Offered this chance. Blair sued to be a Valedictorian, a co or any way she would be recognized as one of the top students.

Cambridgma: THERE WILL NOT, I REPEAT WILL NOT BE a full trial on the merits of the case, as you have written. The Board of Education has nothing further to offer that has not been heard. The legal advice they have been given is to Stop this as quickly as possible and limit their financial losses. If settlement is not reached by August 13, a trial date will be set for sometime next year (around August 2004), but if you are a betting person, put your money on settlement prior to August 13, more like within the next week or so.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 20:43 pm EDT

S. D-S: Question? Yesterday my
"son" told me that his IP address changes weekly and he had to pay his server an additional fee not to change it, as he has to keep the address so he can get into sensitive sites at work.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 20:47 pm EDT

Need I repeat myself ..."As far as I understand it – there has been no ruling, no guilt or innocence established, no right to damages yet assessed. A trial will determine all of that. We can all speculate as to how we think it might go; how we'd like t osee it go ... but, in the end a judge and/or jury, having heard the case will determine the outcome. if a settlement is reached before this goes to trial...we'll never really know what a trial's eventual findings would be."

--posted by cambridgema @ Monday, July 21 2003, 20:49 pm EDT

Need I repeat myself...There WILL NOT be a trial on the merits because the School Board can ill afford to take their losing case further. A non-jury trial will produce the same findings as the TRO did. Don't I make myself clear??There is NOTHING additional for you to find out except the amount of the award. I do not understand why you keep repeating items that are not related or true to THIS case. This case is specific, not generalized.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 21:08 pm EDT

We should wait and see, rather than indulge in "yes there will," "no there won't" sorts of argument. Both sides have reasons to settle.

--posted by MA reader @ Monday, July 21 2003, 21:15 pm EDT

Your information is greatly appreciated. I'm so pleased that such an important man as yourself could take time out of your busy schedule to help the peons of the Blair Hornstine Project.

I'm still a little confused, though--who's the "we" you're speaking of? Although I've not been here as long as you have (don't mistake silence for absence--some of us can go to places without throwing ourselves and our opinions into the ring), I do know enough to realize that you're not the owner of this website. Do you speak for everyone who posts here?

Isn't query and investigation the whole point of this project? Isn't the goal of this page to discover truths and analyze information? Why, then, would you turn your nose up at someone who was searching for a truth that, although not parallel to the case at hand, certainly had connections to it?

I would think that such a successful and distinguished personage as yourself would be open to the idea of a little digging. I'm sure Miss Hornstine was, since her academic career has been so sterling. I'm sure, also, that the journalists who discovered her fraud, as well as Harvard University, would also follow similar sentiments.

Thank you for your time.

--posted by Just curious @ Monday, July 21 2003, 21:17 pm EDT

I don't feel tht Blair has any reason to settle. The press and the public will follow her for 6 weeks to 3 months after she begins college NO MATTER What, then the press will rear its ugly head with a report about her when she graduates and begins graduate school. Maybe it will continue to sneak up when she starts work, gets married and has a baby. Then there could be the comparisons when her child starts university.

She is under no timeframe to settle. Whatever happens in that regard will not lessen the press' continued chasing.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 21:20 pm EDT

Mrs. MM

Your son would be essentially correct as servers randomly assign IP numbers, however, those numbers will fall in a range that is assigned to a specific server. It is possible to have a static IP address as your son has suggested for security reasons in that he goes into servers that will only allow inquiries from specific IP addresses, and not range addresses.

The range of an IP address is a 64 bit character assignment that looks like this: 255.255.255 and it could also be something like 64.01.01.124 could also be a valid IP address. A static IP address will always be the same, and come from the same server, so if your son's IP was 196.86.04.124 it would always be that, but if it was a random IP it might be that today and 198.86.04.294 tomorrow. Note that the server range is still represented, 198.86.04.

It is also possible to immulate an IP, which is what occurs with my address because of the satellite up link that I use, my servers in Ohio use a static address, and my immulated IP is the same as theirs, however their incoming ports are secured, so for those hackers out there, you can try, but you'll just be breaking into Time Warners' stuff, not mine. Each server range has a specific location Mrs. MM which is how route trace will be able to sort of find where you are, as I have previously demonstrated.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, July 21 2003, 21:23 pm EDT

Well, since so many use the same IP as me, it really does not tell one "who" is the actual writer. How does one find an IP number except on direct e-mail? I noticed that some posters here refer to others numbers. Where did you locate them??

P.S. I never said I was a computer genius.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 21:27 pm EDT

Just curious--if you're speaking to me (?)--my suggestion was addressed to the speculation on the question of whether there will or will not be a trial. At this point, only the two sides know whether they are prepared to settle.

--posted by MA reader @ Monday, July 21 2003, 21:27 pm EDT

My IP number is not only used in NJ, but in PA,NY and FL.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 21:29 pm EDT

MA reader: excuse my "crowing," but bet on me.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 21:32 pm EDT

Just Wondering,

Are you referring to this?

"...below is the link to the first page of comments where you'll find the comment in question, however, like I said, I had addressed it long before you ever reared your head, read first, then we won't have to be bothered with redundant questions, and statements that have NO bearing on the issue at hand..."

The we in this sentence, it is obvious to me, means those of us who have alread been through this discussion, and have already had that information. I never claimed to own this web site, and the implication that I might feel I do is not only wholly unjustified, it has no basis in reality. You continue to attempt to turn this discussion away from the very reason for it's existence, and it would not surprise me in the least if the owner of the site, Adam, finally decides he's seen enough garbage to can it all.

Who I am is not relevant unless it has bearing on the matter at hand. Who I am is not relevant unless it is something to do with me in particular. Who I am is not relevant unless it is something I have done that is the basis for the thread. None of these things is the case, and that means simply that if you have a question about me, then you should direct it to me through my website, which depending on the day of the week will show originating in Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, Miami, or Dallas, as I use redundant servers to protect it from down time. Does that mean I'm in one of those cities, or that is where my servers connect to the backbone of the internet?

I consider the discussion regarding me closed, if you want to discuss Blair or her situation, I'm ready and willing.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, July 21 2003, 21:38 pm EDT

Mrs. MM,

I'll bet you use the same sign in in Pa. Fla, or anywhere else you go, which then activates your account in it's home server, which is in New Jersey, thus, your IP is the same, which as we know resolves to an AOL Broadband server in Philly. You're signing into a network which keeps your information in a single place with redundant backups elsewhere in order to use your account anywhere you go. It's not a big secret how the IP addresses work, a simple google search can explain IP information better than I can. Try IP INFOFMATION as a search thread.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, July 21 2003, 21:42 pm EDT

S. D-S. I assume that the above posting was directed at me. I was asking computer questions to you whom I think is knowledgable. I was just curious as to where "you" or anyone posting here with the exception of Adam or my e mail finds ones IP #.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 21:44 pm EDT

Settlements most often occur occur on the courthouse steps just as trial is about to begin. One of the elements of a decision to settle is to discover the other side's case. I know, Mrs. M. M., you think there is nothing else to find out, but you don't know that until you start probing. There will not, I say again, will not be an early settlement.

Did you ever play poker? BH and Dad (and you, too) may like to have all of us believe BH holds a straight flush. While the school board may only be holding a pair of 8s, it beats what BH holds. We'll see you!

--posted by Wondering @ Monday, July 21 2003, 22:34 pm EDT

No, I have never played poker but Bet on me. The case will be settled very soon. Unless something remote comes up to stall the settlement, the case will be solved as early as this week but before August 13.The school board met in emergency session last
Wednesday to approve a settlement. Bet on me.

See me and raise...If I lose, I will apologize but don't take my apology to the bank yet. I will even buy Cretin coffee at Starbucks.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 22:56 pm EDT

If anyone is interested, the following is from the MHS student handbook and is the basis of the claim of Miss H.'s lawsuit.

http://www.mtps.com/hs/handbook/handbookix.stm

"Valedictorian and Salutatorian.
Senior students recognized as the valedictorian and salutatorian at Moorestown High School graduation will be selected based on the seventh semester weighted grade point average (WGPA). The senior student with the highest seventh semester WGPA will be named the valedictorian and the student with the second highest seventh semester WGPA will be named the salutatorian"

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Monday, July 21 2003, 23:07 pm EDT

Mrs. MM,

I was answering the question as I read it. Adam had posted your IP address when he thought that you were serveral people, if you recall, that is where I got it, although if one views the source code of a blog such as this, it may be possible to derive an IP address, and if one is running trapping software, as most websites do, the IP is recorded.

As to how anyone gets an IP address, it can be done in lots of ways, from headers on email, to trapping software, to simple publication, as well as hacking or other nefarious means.

While many of these methods are less than sterling, it happens, however, unless you have multiple ports open and are not behind a firewall, it's not really an issue. As for me, I'm behind redundant firewalls, and these yahoos can look all they want, ultimately it'll stop in Dayton Ohio, and that leaves them over 2,000 miles away from my front door. Of course if they do manage to find me, there are the dogs, and that firestick or two dozen I keep around as deterents. As for damaging my house, well, okay, just don't fall off the mountain, I don't want to have to save their asses. Besides, if they get hurt, either the bears or the wolves, or even a hungry coyote might be willing to put them out of their misery. Saves me the lead, yanno?

It's amazing to me though, that it seems who you and I are has become more relevant to certain of those who frequent this blog than the actual case matter. Even have one proclaiming the case is about plagiarism, which of course, it totally false. I suppose it's just easier for them to blindly attack than it is for them to actually think up an original thought, what with all the plagiarism going on here.

Just a thought, or two...

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, July 21 2003, 23:32 pm EDT

Actually, no.

Reading the transcript will not help one "find it out definitively" regarding Blair not having been offered even the co-validictorian spot.

This has been /your/ interpretation of words such as 'possible' in the judge's opinion. The judge's opinion was based on the letter sent to the Mirkin boy. (You posted that at least five times.) Other interpretations to this letter exist, which understanding even a bit about the legal system, seems much more plausible. The Mirkins wanted to have their say at the hearing. The letter was sent to give them that oppurtunity.

Yours is the only interpretation that the spot was never going to go to Blair. Even she sued to be named 'sole' validictorian. Not 'a' validictorian.

We've been over this, many, many times, Mrs. MM. You, who profess to be a 'champion of truth' seem to be rather blinded by this item, which is not, at all, any kind of fact.

--posted by Not quite @ Monday, July 21 2003, 23:46 pm EDT

I have wanted to add my two cents for a while, but have been hesitant to do it. I feel I am now ready and willing to put forth my comments. I have weighed the possible outcome, since I know when I put myself on a soapbox or make myself noticeable by stating my opinion to the world, I will be noticed and I will be forced to hear others opinions on my words and/or public thoughts. (hmmm could there be a Blairism their?)

“I have watched this, and joined in, only to have my heritage, my name, my business, my veracity, and my integrity bantered about like it was nothing.” …..

S. Douglas-Smith to you I say …. Get over yourself Tonto. You’ve stated numerous times how gracious and benevolent you have been to the youth of your community. Donating computers is a very kind and caring gesture.. but we aren’t throwing you a thanks for being alive party any time soon, so loosen up the ascot, and stop being so condescending to anyone who views things differently then you.

Mrs. M M ….. are you getting PAID or LAID by Judge Hornstein. There is no way that you are going to convince everyone reading this blog that poor Blair is an innocent victim – but keep on typing honey. I do hope you are taking your blood pressure medicine.

And what’s up with blaming all this on Kenny Mirkins mom. (couldn’t pick the woman out of a lineup) Every time you get backed up against the wall, you point the finger towards her. I’ve seen Kadri at school board meeting and many school functions, and he certainly does not seem the kind of paste eater who would do what any one person told him too. Are we to believe that Mrs. Mirkin is more scary and bullish then Judge Hornstein and his mob lawyers?

Furthermore, Mrs. MM, I resent that you take such orgasmic glee in the fact that the school and ultimately the Township of Moorestown and its students, may have to pay money to Blair Hornstein. Despite your dramatically exaggerated claims that we all contributed to poor Blair’s misfortune, there is NO reason why our children’s education should or could be compromised because the school board tried to make Blair share the Valedictorian position due to her home schooling. Oh SHUTUP about the whole they never were going to make Blair valedictorian because she didn’t get a letter thing. That’s your interptation of the story, which many people don’t seem to agree with.

Cambridgema …. You rule ! I enjoy reading your posts. I find them very informative. Keeping on challenging Mrs. MM. I know you get close to the truth when she changes the subject.

There are other noteworthy posters but I can’t mention them all …..

To everyone …. Mrs MM would have you all believe that Moorestown citizens have united, formed a posse, created a schedule, and are taking turns wreaking havoc on the Hornstein household. One fraction passing out eggs, yet another handling phony phone calls, with backup units and covert double secret probation units waiting in the wings. I am sure Blair and the Hornsteins are disliked in this town, but we Moorestownians have many more exciting things to do with our time then to speak of Blair and her continuing misfortune. She was a hot topic but now she is just yesterday’s news. You wince when you hear her name, but then look away. I have the same reaction towards road kill …. It’s a shame, but there is nothing I can do now.

I just want to let all Blog readers know that the only place the Blair good vs evil debate is going on, is in Mrs MM’s head. I will venture to say that most Moorestown residents are embarrassed by Blair’s behavior, embarrassed for Blair, and feel sad that our towns 15 minutes of fame has left us feeling like we walked out of the bathroom with our skirt stuck in our underwear.

Think about this …. Imagine if Blair filed a suit to be sole valedictorian, and won, but then shared the position with Ken Mirkin, and possibly even the 3rd student as well. Imagine if she used her graduation speech to speak about her illness, explaining what her condition is, how she overcame medical obstacles, and how her classmates must overcome their own obstacles in life. Imagine if it was discovered she plagiarized articles she wrote for the Courier Post and she used the words “I’m sorry” in her apology. Imagined if she dropped the 2.7 million dollar lawsuit and said, “I just wanted everyone to realize the rules shouldn’t be changed midyear”.

I feel very sorry that Blair's parents did not guide her in that direction. It could have been so different.

PS. Cretin, stop using profanity, it highlights immaturity. And I saw Blair in 7-11, (despite what Mrs MM would have you believe, I did not tackle her to the ground, nor whip out a paintball, I continued buying my nachos) and she is a very pretty girl.

--posted by Moorestown P.R. @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 0:55 am EDT

Moorestown P.R.

Tonto I'm not, I'm nobody's sidekick, and it's a derogatory term, which shows that while you may have watched the Lone Ranger, you have never known the condition of my people. I am over myself, last time I looked, stating a fact was stating a fact. To me, the fact that I can look at this objectively, (and I do), is a greater indication of integrity than your thinly veiled I'm a parent and my kids and I will suffer because of Blair, lets toss in a comment that makes me look sympathetic to her, and run commentary.

It takes at least two to tango PR, and Blair didn't create this mess herself. You claim it is so yesterday's news, but hey, I guess the paint is dry on the paintball splats that must be the Hornstines imagination, although there are photos and everything, including a police report. Check out the fatal injuries that occur every year from paint ball guns and then tell me it isn't a dangerous weapon. And death threats, I mean really, are they justified, no matter how mad the community is? Wait, I know, some wacko from outside Moorestown impersonated that particular person, right, and made the threats in the name of the citizens of Moorestown? Get real, get off of your fantasy ship, and pay attention.

I have repeatedly directed this blog back to the subject, and you sniper posters, (you like to snipe, because you have nothing original to say) jump up and say Oh, yeah S. D-S. your IP is in Ohio, when of course I had addressed that on the 4th of July no less, or that I'm not this or that, when the reality is that like me, who does not know you, you have no idea who I am.

I use my life experience as examples because you draw on what you know. I use them as justification for my way of thinking, and I have never asked you to agree, support or ring bells on my behalf. As for any party, last one I did I got caught wearing boobies, so I stay away from them because I think maybe I'm a little to liberal for the camera after a root beer or three. Enjoy one without me, and raise a glass to clear thinking, objective folks who only have an opinion, and don't really care if you like it.

I don't come here to please you, I won't apologize for what I believe, and if you don't like that, well, you know PR, you can kiss my a** because frankly, I don't care if you don't like it, got it? Get over it, and go judge yourself because unlike you, I actually have an idea or two that might just stand out in the long run.

Enough said about you, and if you don't like that, feel free to bust me up, but remember what goes around comes around...

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 1:45 am EDT

Martin Luther King Jr. was confronted about his plagiarism; his remarks were to the effect that hey, it got me a Doctorate. Great example Dr. King. JFK noted that he had liberally used words of others throughout his campaign and in office, and he said; “I trust that they will be flattered I liked their work.” (Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.) Ted Kennedy often repeats this theme of forms of flattery in his own office.

Bob Dylan has made a fan by plagiarizing the poetry of that fan, currently, but we're not here to talk about that, are we? No, we're here to rip down an 18 year old child and scatter her broken remains upon the alter of community unity and privacy. How dare she point out that hey, you all were trying to dick her. How dare she say, hey, I don't think that's fair. So you dig and you dig and you dig, and you find the mud and you sling it in headlines 2 inches tall, Blair is a Plagiarist, Oh My God, it's horrible, she's worse than Ted Bundy, The Hillside Strangler(s), and Pete Rose COMBINED!

The fact that she was right, that the board was discriminating against her is lost in the rush to judge and demonize her over her failings as a writer. Personally, I think she's in grand company if it's okay for a Civil Rights Icon, a President, A Senator, most reporters, and lots of other writers, sinners and humans.

You want the facts, here they are. The board was discriminating against her based on her board approved IEP, and you don't like that, so you claim her illness is bogus, though you didn't think so before it became known that she had the highest GPA. You attack her family, her brother, her father because they're smart, one graduating from Harvard, the other a Judge who decided to teach a lesson to Moorestown it will never forget. It smacks of elitist popularity hogging, and you claim she should have shared the spotlight. According to the very board she sued, Mr. Kadri wasn't in a sharing mood, which is why she ended up suing.

Of course, let’s not forget the lies Mr. Kadri told about Mr. Hornstine, and how they were shot down by one of Mr. Kadri's associates. Couldn't win honestly, so he decided to try to win by lying. And he did it in a statement submitted to the courts. Perjury, anyone?

The fact that you can ignore the other side of the fence is sufficient evidence that you don't or won't admit that it does take two to tango. Enjoy your life, dancing alone, because it's the only way your insulation won't one day be totally and completely ripped away.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 2:03 am EDT

yawn

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 8:05 am EDT

Great post, Moorestown P. R.! For someone who doesn't care what others think, S. D-S. sure spends a lot of time telling us all how great he is. Shoot! He even follows up one post with another, he is so compelled to say more.

What's he (a woman would be much more secure in who she is) doing here? If he really doesn't care, why does he not just shut up?

--posted by Wondering @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 8:42 am EDT

Moorestown PR:

You can criticize all you want. You embarrass me if you are truly from Moorestown with all the criticism you throw at me, but IF you are, you don't have tooooooo much accurate info:

1.. Mrs. Mirkin never goes by that name, She is Dr. Mona Shangold.

2. Hornstine is spelled "ein."

3. Cambridgema doesn't know right from left very often with the facts.

4. Kadri is a pompous ...; the Assistant Super called him a LIAR. (Judithann Keefe has been in the school for years. She knows what went and goes on. )So, don't believe me, call her a liar, dare you!

5. I will ask Judge H to look up your IP and see who you are in so that Mrs. H. can see who is accusing me of sleeping with him. That is disgusting and juvenile. I am also NOT getting paid by him directly but by YOU, if you pay taxes. Since I know "most of it all" it bothers you that you and the rest of the citizens of Moorestown area are getting 15 minutes of unwanted fame. The cameras and reporters are still there. Check out Main Street today.

6. I would have possibly thought that about Kadri and Shangold, but I have seen and know both of them. I would not like to bump into her. She is scary and bullish. Sorry you missed her antics at the hearing.

7. Whoppee, you have seen Blair in 7-11. Then you must have seen her a while ago. You must have seen her with her parents, maybe her brother. You did not see her alone. I doubt if you have seen her. She hasn't been in Moorestown for nary a day since the beginning of June. And I saw Antonio Banderas in NY, for whatever that is worth...


8. Yes, the Board of Moorestown will have to pay. I only laugh at most of you 'good' citizens because of your narrow mindedness,and guilt (of neglecting YOUR children), and I again quote Judge Wolfson "this issue has polarized the graduating class and the community_most of whom are uniformed about the facts and the law..." Yes, uninformed about the facts and the law, Sir. Uninformed and ignorant of the facts and the law. Get it yet?

9. Your criticism of S. Douglass-Smith by derogatory remarks on his ancestory further show that you are a scam, ----UNINFORMED and IGNORANT. Since you treat him so harshly, I don't doubt in a minute that you would treat a young lady (Miss H.) who isn't fighting back with you in a worse way. You are one of my neighbors I despise, and you are shameful. Keep on reading here, but don't write. You can't improve your lie. (double meaning, if you don't understand)

10. You should be embarrassed, very embarrassed. You would like Miss H. to drop the financial suit? I originally would have agreed with you until I saw my neighbors go into such a snit. You represent them? Well, maybe the money should come from your assinine pocket. Please hide!

11. Thanks for throwing her a bone:"she is a very pretty girl."It's like the old axiom "some of my best friends are...... Hide, give it up. Stay indoors.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 8:51 am EDT

Moorestown PR.

PS. I don't need or take blood pressure meds and I AM NOT YOUR HONEY. DON'T YOU TALK TO ME IN THAT TONE!

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 8:54 am EDT

Once again, Mrs. M.M. proves that all she is good for is attacking people. You have yet to contribute anything to this conversation. All you do is attack. Sometimes you stick up for your boy toy S.Douglas-Smith (whose name you can't even spell). Each time you open your mouth, you remind us of how uninformed you are.

1. Cambridgema puts you to shame.

2. Kadri may be pompous, but he could not possibly be any more pompous than you. You two would make a good pair.

3. You have finally admitted that you work for or are a member of the Hornstine family. I will assume that you pay property taxes. Thus, if the school's liability insurance does not cover this (which it will), you will also be footing the bill.

4. Judge Hornstine does not have the authority to trace IP addresses to their users. He would have to subpoena the internet service provider to get that information. If it were discovered that he was using his position for personal gain, he would lose his job. You wouldn't want that. You need a place to sleep at night...

5. You are the one who is narrow-minded.

6. When you're in a hole, quit digging...

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 9:01 am EDT

S. D-S: Don't let any of these champions of boredom, negativity and distasteful comments to you personally stop you from you posts here. They are the most thoughtful, truthful and enjoyable ones I have read in the weeks we have been jostling with many. Please don't let another a** make you go back to your business or allow you more time enjoying the outdoors of Colorado. If you decide that these insipid fools are wasting your time, let me know. I will send you my personal e mail address. I enjoy your readings. I enjoy intelligent gatherings of facts. I enjoy your literary style.(boy, I can now hear the taunts that will follow from the fools.)

--posted by Mrs. M.M. @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 9:04 am EDT

Uh oh. Mrs. M.M. is getting uppity. Get out tranqs! Let's wrestle this one to the ground.

If you haven't realized it yet, you have no authority to tell anyone here what to do. It is laughable that you would even think to criticize someone else's tone. Get over yourself.

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 9:06 am EDT

Cretin: Get a life. Learn to read. I did not say that I was a member of the Hornstine family. Disagree with me if you must, mistruths that you are spewing are not becoming. We will have coffee, REAAAL Soon! Count on it!

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 9:08 am EDT

"I am also NOT getting paid by him directly but by YOU, if you pay taxes."

Do you work for the government then? Maybe you are a teacher...

Why don't you get a life? Here's a place that would do you some good: http://www.bcc.edu/

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 9:18 am EDT

Cretin: Back when I was a wee wee tot, I used to teach a course there, but now I have to spend my days teaching you...

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 9:24 am EDT

||sticks and stones will break my bones...||what?||you heard me||what?||i said you heard me||no, i didn't||yes, you did||no i didn't||yes i did||you suck||no you suck||no you suck||no you suck||shut up||whadda you say?||you heard me||no i didn't||your ugly||what||you're ugly||no i'm not||yes you are||no your not||yes you are||i'm smarter than you||no your not||yes i am||no your not||well i know more about what's going on than you do nananana||no you don't||yes i do||no you don't||yes i do||everyone else is wrong, wrong, wrong, i tell you||what?||i have the inside track...i don't understand the legal proceedings and i ignore the facts, but i'm sure i'm right, everyone else is wrong||you're an idiot||what?||you heard me||no, i didn't||yes you did||you suck||no you suck||let me wave my arms here, obfuscate there|| what?||you heard me||what?||you heard me||

keep it up!

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 9:27 am EDT

on second thought - time to filter out mrs mm ... and stick to reading the posts that actually contribute to a better understanding of the situation.

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 9:28 am EDT

mrs mm has actually taught. how despicable then that you have such glee in the hope that the hornstine affair will damage the moorestown school system ... and will result in the degradation of children's education there. how hypocritical. how surely disgusting. i hope you are not teaching now ... or in any position to influence the lives of children.

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 9:30 am EDT

Mrs. M.M., the only thing you have taught me is how stupid you are. Keep it up.

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 9:36 am EDT

by following the example of others who have been posting here far longer than me, it is time for me to *IGNORE* mrs mm. i shall not waste my time reading any of her posts. i wish there were an ignore feature - like on aol - so that her postings wouldn't even appear on my screen.

--posted by dothecrimedothetime @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 9:38 am EDT

In the "Ongoing Saga" of Blair Hornstine, I wonder what Blair's older brother Adam, thinks about all this. Has he made any public comments in support of his sister and her lawsuit?
It's too bad that he has been caught in the middle of all this. From his community service work and academic success,he sounds like an honorable young man.I haven't heard any negative comments made toward him. If he truly embraces honor, he must have been beside himself when Blair refused to apologize for her plagiarism.

--posted by Voice from the Agora @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 9:42 am EDT

Great post, PR. Don't know much about computers but I would be willing to bet that no one but Adam can see the IP addresses of anyone who posts here despite all the malarkey being flug about herein.

--posted by Amused from Afar @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 9:52 am EDT

Wondering,

For the record, I did not say I didn't care, I said I don't care if you don't like my opinion. There is a signifigant difference in the two positions. As for being secure in who I am, well, I'm secure enough that I have often linked my name, (through Adams wonderful IP recording, E-mail posting, Url Capturing software), which includes a business address, a phone number and more. I'm so insecure that I'm willing to be known for who I am, not just a nickname like "wondering" which implies, of course, that you have no idea what you think, because you're wondering all the time. You remind me of folks in the south who must have broken everything they have because they're always "fixin to do something". Of course the difference is that they're things aren't really broken, and it's just an expression, you on the other hand, are obviously lost if you can't discern the difference between "I don't care if you don't like my opinion", and I don't care, in general.

You got one thing right, if I didn't care I wouldn't be here, hence, I don't care if you don't like my opinion. Get it?

I think you're jealous, or wish, (much like Cretin, who has spent a great deal of time plagiarizing my remarks) that you'd said what I've said. Either way, I still don't care if you don't like my opinion, but you should at least be aware that when you put words in my mouth I'm mean enough to SPIT them right back at you, and able enough to hit the mark.

As for your opinion of me, hey, you're entitled to it, and I still don't care. I'm secure enough in myself to publish pictures on my website with me wearing false boobs, imagine that a man wearing boobs, at a party attended by many of my friends, (which I've been accused of not having on this blog), whilst enjoying the party thrown in honor of my 41st birthday. Secure, I'm secure. Happy, I'm very happy. Always ready to deal with a short memoried moronic twit like you, you betcha!

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 10:06 am EDT

Wondering,

Just for the record, you'd lose your bet... ask your friend, Just Curious...

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 10:07 am EDT

Whoops!

Sorry Amused, that was directed at you, not Wondering. My bad! Bad fingers, bad bad bad fingers!

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 10:10 am EDT

Do the crime: Please, Please Please filter me off of your site or ignore my thoughts, my opinions. When this is all said and done, please, please, please only pull up my posts....Then you will see that with the facts I am posting, I am as close to 100% correct as you can get.
Do I get the choice to ignore you, too?
Ask Cretin who I am. He seems to always have an idea.
He and I will meet shortly.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 10:14 am EDT

Is Mrs. M. M. a public employee? Is she posting while on the public's time? Is she using a computer provided by the public?

If we taxpayers are paying her, as she claims, we should seriously look into that.

--posted by Wondering @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 10:17 am EDT

Self censorship. Ignoring the posts of anybody is like saying, "I don't want to be fully informed, I want to live in the dark and be fed bullsh*t with a spoon, much the way a mushroom is..."

When you do that all you prove is that you're not willing to allow the expression of divergent opinions in your thinking process, and in that narrow minded view is the rub, the flaw, and the failure of society to embrace different ideas or attack those it does not agree with.

Integrity is about seeing the whole story, and addressing it, sincerity is about believing what you say, and saying what you believe, (regardless of the personal cost), honor is about sharing the stage, and disagreeing with sincerity and integrity. Thus far, with few exceptions, this thread has not had that. I have never swayed from what I believe. I have never changed my opinion in midsway. I have stated my place, and I remain upon it, unswayed, unbowed, and firmly enough that it offends those of you who do not understand things like tenacity, determination, drive, and principle. It's why you want me to shut up, because like it or not, I don't pull the punches, and I don't change directions in midstream.

One day you'll look at how you railed against me, and say, "Gee, I respect that, he stuck to his guns, and didn't run in the face of the enemy..." Hell, they give medals for that in combat....

This is combat without bullets.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 10:22 am EDT

My, my, S. D-S., did we touch a nerve?

--posted by Wondering @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 10:23 am EDT

S. D-S ? I think you just proved my point.

--posted by Amused from Afar @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 10:27 am EDT

Wondering,

No, you ticked me off with your rantings that are baseless, and pointless. You questing my integrity, expect me to teach you a lesson or two dozen about it. You question my sincerity, expect me to sincerly correct your misguided assumptions, and when you make those assumptions, expect me to drop the me and make an ass out of you.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 10:27 am EDT

BTW, S. D-S., go back and look at my post. This is what I said:

"Great post, Moorestown P. R.! For someone who doesn't care what others think, S. D-S. sure spends a lot of time telling us all how great he is. Shoot! He even follows up one post with another, he is so compelled to say more."

Notice, I said that you said you don't care what others THINK! Now, you have to be more careful when you attack others. Read the posts carefully.

--posted by Wondering @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 10:28 am EDT

Amused, which point? I'm too tired to look, I think...

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 10:29 am EDT

Wondering,

As I clearly stated, I don't care what others think of my opinion. In other words, since you don't seem to comprehend English, you are free to disagree with me. I never said I don't care what others think, the fact that I disagree is obvious, and the fact that I'm willing to voice my own opinion is proof that I'm willing to consider alternative arguments.

For the longest time I was accused of supporting Plagiarism, I do not. CambridgeMA asked what I would think if Harvard recinded Blair's admission, and of my reply he said "Well said." Yet, even after that my position on plagiarism was repeatedly questioned. I simply believe, and STILL DO that the paper which uses software designed to capture suspect passages, has a measure of responsiblity in the plagiarism.

You have claimed this case was about plagiarism. It is not. You then argued credibility, and it's not about that either, because the credibility can not be tied to an issue, that, while troubling, is not the basis for the case in the first place.

Using the 'discovered' plagiarism as justification to smear, slam, defame, and otherwise demonize Blair in the face of her TRO victory was a method of depriving her of her rightful position at the head of the class, and should the schoolboard then use that to go back and "bring her credibility into question" I should think if will find that it won't be allowed, given that the board, although cursory at best, did review her work prior to the hearing, and at that time found no issues.

The argument of credibility has no bearing on the case at hand, and in my understanding of the law, is not admissible under the definitions of cumpulsive discovery, or evidentury disclosure. In a seperate suit to recind the valedictory, the board may be able to use the credibility issue, but under the narrow definition of the law in this case, as it pertains to this case, that is not likely, because if any parties credibility is at stake, I would say, much like Judge Wolfson did, that it is Kadri's. After all he got caught in a lie, or two dozen. He tried some fuzzy math to twist Blairs' GPA, and was embarrassed in the proceeding for being agressively and compulsively anti Blair Hornstine.

I don't know about you, but the least you could do is look at the facts, and address them, because regardless of what you think of Blair, denying what Kadri did is the same as excusing it. That's what you are doing. Great thing to teach the kids. Hey, kids, you know, you can lie about people and get away with it, it's okay, the school board president does it.

Kadri should be sued for defamation, and slander. And you should be ashamed for looking at only one side of the matter.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 10:42 am EDT

Note: regarding credibility, I should have added, "credibility as it relates to the plagiarism can not be tied to the case as it has been presented to the courts, as they are separate issues, not joined under the law..."

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 10:44 am EDT

S.Douglas-Smith should be sued for defamation and slander. He has only looked at one side of the issue, and yet he maliciously accuses us of doing the same.

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 11:06 am EDT

Am still wondering about Mrs. M. M., being a public employee? She hints that she is a teacher. Could it be that she is on summer break, and therefore on her own time?

What teacher would take such an interest in the BH saga? What teacher would claim to be an insider, knowing the family, and where BH is at all times? What teacher would clearly side with BH, to the point of attending the hearing for the restraining order, and hoping the school district will have to pay BH in damages?

I wonder about all of this, and wonder if Mrs. M. M. is one of the home instructors whose grading of BH's work contributed to her GPA.

I wonder. Could it be?

--posted by Wondering @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 11:29 am EDT

I know Mrs. Betancourt (a former MHS English teacher) is pretty close to Blair. She went to far as to publicly defend Blair's plagiarism as a "mistake." Hmmm.

That's a good point - maybe we could be dealing with one of those mysterious taxpayer-funded tutors?

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 11:33 am EDT

Mrs. M. M.?

--posted by Wondering @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 12:21 pm EDT

Does anyone else hear that Jeopardy music?? And I think it's almost over.

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 12:44 pm EDT

Regarding Blair suing for defamation ... such was attemnpted when she sought the TRO ... and her claim was rejected by the Judge:

“…based on the parties' briefing and comments in a teleconference held on May 6, 2003, the Court does not construe paragraph 23 of Count One in plaintiff's complaint to set forth causes of action based on defamation, breach of contract, or violation of the non- disclosure provisions of N.J.A.C. 6A:14-1.1 - 6A:14 App. E.” (http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/fed/html/ca03-1953-1.html#Footref5).

As I understand it, the standards for proving defamation (libel or slander) are extremely high - and incumbent upon the plaintiff to prove such by meeting various "tests".

Some interesting points:

“Slander and libel are two forms of defamation.”
(http://injury-law.freeadvice.com/libel_and_slander/defamation_character.htm)

“WHAT IS "SLANDER"?
Slander is a spoken defamation.
(http://injury-law.freeadvice.com/libel_and_slander/slander.htm)”

“WHAT IS "LIBEL"?
Libel is a written defamation. Generally, radio and television broadcasts that are defamatory are considered to be libel, rather than slander.”
(http://injury-law.freeadvice.com/libel_and_slander/libel.htm)

“CAN LIBEL SUITS BE BROUGHT BY A PUBLIC FIGURE?
These suits are a bit dicer for the public figure. A public figure may be an elected or appointed (a politician) or someone who has stepped into a public controversy. Public figures have a ‘harder road to toll’ than the average person since they must prove that the party defaming them knew the statements were false, made them with actual malice, or was negligent in saying or writing them. Proving these elements makes the chance of a successful lawsuit slim.”
(http://injury-law.freeadvice.com/libel_and_slander/public_figure_lawsuit.htm)

“WHAT ABOUT INSULTS AND EPITHETS? ARE THEY DEFAMATORY?
Generally, no. Usually they are seen as outbursts of emotion, with no real substance, except to show intense dislike.”
(http://injury-law.freeadvice.com/libel_and_slander/insults_epithets.htm)

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:09 pm EDT

By the definitions above, Blair appears at this point to meet the test of being a "public figure" (...someone who has stepped into a public controversy.)

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:11 pm EDT

Sue away Cretin, I have the where withall to defend, and attorneys you wouldn't believe, and they don't represent Mafia kingpins. Of course don't be surprised you simpering idiot, if I respond in kind, because if anything can be surely said, it is that you have slandered me repeatedly, maliciously, and without regard for any damage you may have done me.

Load up, big boy, I await service of your summons and complaint. Of course, it won't happen because like all cowards, you, when you get your face shoved in the sh*t you shovel, dry up and blow away.

It's not a secret who I am, Cretin, take you best damn shot. It is only fair though, to warn you, I'm a damn good shot in my own right, and I don't have any compunctions about standing up for me.

You're a lowlife, Cretin, you always will be. One day you'll wake up in the stench that surrounds you, and realize that you're nothing. On that day, you will do us all a favor, and just dissapear. Until then, I know how to avoid your stink.

I look forward to the day when I don't have to. So, like I said, bring it on big boy, take your best shot! When it's over, you'll beg me to relent, and on that day, you'll learn something my posts should already have proven: I'm relentless. I don't know mercy, and I don't give quarter. You will lose, and you will wish you'd never reared your idiotic head into this fray.

Remember, I don't care, I have money to burn, and it would do me nothing better than to see you go down in flames. Any questions, Cretin, is that clear enough for you, or do you need a guide to figure it out. You have done nothing but be an idiot from day one; on the final day, you will know the difference between reality, and the game you thought you had mastered.

Bring it on.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:16 pm EDT

from above - "In a seperate [sic] suit to recind the valedictory..."

No separate suit will be possible (if a jury finds for Blair) - or needed (if a jury finds for the school) to rescind Blair's valedictorian status.

If the jury in an upcoming trial (assuming there is no settlement) finds for Blair (i.e. she was discriminated against), she will retain the title of "sole valedictorian". If by chance, the school system is to prevail (i.e. the school is found not to have discriminated against her), then it will be the prerogative of the high school to appoint multiple valedictorians, since the TRO will have been overturned.

Blair will - and should - always be able to lay claim to valedictory status (since her GPA is clearly the highest). Whether her valedictory status is deemed "sole" or "co-" - is one of the ancilliary issues following a trial focused on alleged discrimination.

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:26 pm EDT

Thank you, S.Douglas-Smith. You have proven my point perfectly.

I agree that you are a simpering idiot, a coward, and a lowlife. I am relieved that you have FINALLY realized the truth about yourself.

Now, shouldn't you be scalping innocent women and children? That is the only thing you are good for...

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:36 pm EDT

Cretin

When the monkey gave birth to you did it realize that you were going to turn out to be the reason for it's extinction?

I wish you would take me up on my offer to fly you out here. There are, after all, lots of steep cliffs you could accidentally fall off of.

Do us a favor, put yourself out of your misery you ignorant moron. I hear playing in traffic is detremental to your health, why don't you go play on an interstate.

As for your repeated attacks upon my heritage, be advised, I know more about you than you know about me. Don't be surprised to hear from certain of my people who find your kind of racism repugnant, and, in keeping with the best traditions of European legal standards, feel it is a violation of their civil rights.

In other words, you need an attorney, and I know where you live.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:40 pm EDT

I'm a monkey? Wow, what an insult. You do realize that makes YOU a sewer rat. No matter what you say to me, remember that I will always be better than you. You are nothing more than a piece of filth.

Here's an idea for you. Why don't you start your car in your garage. And then take a nap. A real long nap. You won't be missed. On the contrary, there will be much celebration. Even your people will how pow wows.

Or you could just die of syphilis. Either way would be fine with me.

So why don't you get back to your casino. You are taking up valuable bandwidth.

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:48 pm EDT

Europeans force marched the Cherokee along the Trail of Tears. Along the way over 900,000 men women and children died of starvation and murder. Of the plains peoples, over 11 million were killed in the wars the Europeans waged against them, the greatest example of genocide the world has ever known.

We hear of the Holocast, I'm here to tell you that you don't know what a Holocast is as it relates to what Europeans did to my people, and for you, Cretin, a Jew by family association, (jewish blood), as you put it, to make such irresponsible and ignorant statements designed to insult my people, and me in particular, you prove once more not only your ignorance, but your insipid stupidity in the face of overwhelming truth. You may live a lie, I will shove the truth down your atheistic throat until you beg a God you deny to save your sorry skin.

You're worthless, pathetic, and stupid. You represent the worst of society, and frankly, I am tired of responding to you on this forum. You will hear from me, you worthless excuse for a human, but it won't be here from this point forward.

I do know who you are, unlike others who think they do, I do know, and you will come to that awareness sooner than you think.

So deny it, I don't care. In the end, he who laughs last laughs hardest. I always laugh last.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:48 pm EDT

Cretin and S. Douglas-Smith:

I think it's clear that neither of you like each other. Point taken. Now, please stop flooding this comments section with your personal attacks or I will temporarily or permanently ban both of you from posting on this forum.

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:54 pm EDT

Mrs. MM,

Write me.

To the rest of you who read this blog. I have come to the conclusion that you don't want to debate the case, you just want to play sissy wars of words, and engage in backbiting and slander. I don't trade in bullshit, and I'll not start now.

As for people like Cretin, I think it's a shame that the First Amendmant extends certain protections to that kind of filth. That he would have sold out his own people in the ghettos of Warsaw is obvious, such is his cowardly disposition, that he lives in a country secured by people of distinction is sad. It is a pity we can't pick and choose the citizenry we allow in this country.

I was tempted to post his home address, phone number, and identification here, as well as his license number, social security number, and other pieces of identifying information, but I refrain because that information is better suited to dealing with him on my terms, and I will.

I am sorry this thread has come to this, which is what his goal has been all along. It is a shame that Adam allowed him to return, and in so doing, created an environment where the truth will always be supressed by the idiot who yells the loudest, is the most vulgar or repulsive, or who, in general, has no respect for any person or principle that we claim to adhere to in this country.

Frankly, if you people want to subscribe to his brand of deciet, hatred, and ignorance, you ultimately will have to decide how much of your humanity you were willing to sacrifice in order to follow this idiot into the very bowels of deprivation and ignorance.

Go in peace, but whatever you do, just go.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:58 pm EDT

Adam,

Since you didn't keep Cretin banned, don't you think you have a measure of responsibility regarding his ongoning attacks on me, my race, and my life?

If you want to ban, hey, that's your perogative, but I would think you'd ban the problem, not the people being attacked repeatedly by this person.

As for me, hey, you know, it's a big internet Adam, do what you have to.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 16:00 pm EDT

I'm sorry, S.D-S. I won't bother you anymore.

--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 16:00 pm EDT

Adam,

I am wondering why you don't ban them both. This has really gotten very nasty. Good natured jabs are part of the game, but this has gotten way beyond that.

I am also wondering if S. D-S. is aware of federal laws which prohibit acquisition (except for legitimate purposes) of the personally identifiable information he claims to have regarding Cretin, and the consequences for doing that.

--posted by Wondering @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 16:08 pm EDT

S. D-S:

>Since you didn't keep Cretin banned, don't you think you have a
>measure of responsibility regarding his ongoning attacks on me, >my race, and my life?
>
>If you want to ban, hey, that's your perogative, but I would think
>you'd ban the problem, not the people being attacked repeatedly >by this person.

Both of you have been contributing to the problem. One person posts and goads the other person into attacking and defending. It's a cycle, and it won't stop so as long both parties are interested in continuing it. You and cretin (along with cretin and Mrs. MM) have been more than happy to let this issue escalate.

I've been on assignment for the past several days while the two/three of you have been duking it out. That's why I haven't responded until now.

Just stay on topic. There are interesting things to be written and said. Let's see this type of discussion instead of pointless personal attacks.

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 16:12 pm EDT

For Wondering,

The information was obtained by local authorities following up on various complaints regarding the behavior, and statements of a certain individual, and released, per Federal Statute to me, should I decide to persue, as is my legal right, a complaint against the said individual.

No laws were violated in aquiring the information, and should a legal action arise, it will be based specifically on the actions, words, and deeds of the person involved.

Given that I work in certain areas regarding computer security, that I would know how to obtain the information is a given, that I would do it within the constraints of the law is obvious.

Move on.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 16:12 pm EDT

I've been visiting this website for more than a month, and I always showed up for one reason: to be incensed by S. Douglas-Smith's postings. I used to love being bitter about his ramblings, his pompousness, his tragic nouveau riche asides.

After I visited his website, though, my opinions changed. I saw a beautiful family, a happy home, and a father who clearly loved to record it all.

Now I just feel sorry for S. Douglas-Smith. I'm sorry that although he is successful, with beautiful children, he still has so much anger that he feels it necessary to spurt his hatred in forums extending past this one--even the memorial to the Columbine massacres held his anger and bitterness.

I won't be posting on the forums again--the "thrill," at least for me, is gone. But before I leave, I'd like to suggest that Mr. Douglas-Smith takes a deep breath, looks around at what he has, and considers himself lucky and honored. What can a victory over faceless posters possibly give him?

None of this is about Blair Hornstine anymore. I may not support her side, but I think that any self-respecting young woman would be appalled to see the hatred that has been spewed in her name--by both sides. When it comes to accusing someone of not knowing what a holocaust is...that's just pathetic. I advise everyone here to either stick to the subject or stop spewing the hypocrisy of "Well, I can post it if it's about someone else, but when it's towards me it's bad." Mrs. MM and Cambridgema both do a good job of remaining on-topic. Maybe some of the rest of you would do well to follow their example.

Thank you all for providing some interesting reading. The Internet Archive crawls the 'net, recording copies of all the websites it can. In twenty years, copies of this page may still be available. Is this what you want to leave for posterity?

--posted by Just curious @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 16:14 pm EDT

Common Denominator?

Enough is enough. Adam, thank you for your thoughts there. Of course, as I've said it takes two to tango, then again, I'm only human, and attacks on my character tend to tick me off.

I'll agree that it's a two way street, I do not agree that it was something I started, in fact, quite the opposite. However, I accept my measure of responsibility and as I said before you posted today, I am done with that.

Thanks for your forum, it's been big fun, mostly. :)

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 16:19 pm EDT

Just Curious,

I for one will be sorry not to have you along. Though we've bumped, I've not found you offensive, and if you have me, well, I can be aceribic with the worst of them, I know that.

Thanks for your thoughts, I'll consider them.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 16:22 pm EDT

Final Comment, Just Curious, with regards to the holocast comment, the spirit of the statement was that not only the Jewish people, whom I generally admire and hold in great esteem are not the only people who have suffered genocide on such a scale. If you found that comment offensive, I apologize, it was not my intent to offend anybody with it, rather to remind them that other peoples, races, and societies have also felt the hand of that kind of hatred.

Near the beginning of this thread, I defended an obvious anit semetic persons privlege of posting, though his comment was horrible. I defended it based on the principle of exchange, rather than the doctrine of hate that he supported.

That I may have made a statement as equally repulsive is difficult for me to accept, however, if you saw it that way, I am indeed, sorry, it was not my intent.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 16:28 pm EDT

From what I've read of these comments, most of them are insightful, while others are lacking in dignity. I mean, this whole plagarism thing has been blown out of proportion. I find it amusing that she (and her family) made a big to-do about valedictorian, when she should have just accepted the co-valedictorian in the first place, let the school board change the rules, its not her decision...but then she gets caught plagarizing in her neighborhood paper, you know what they say, once a copier always a copier...

--posted by cows moo @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 16:31 pm EDT

In what parrallel universe is it anyone's legal right to do anything about being flamed on a message board? That is just so much B.S. It is that same litigous streak that got Blair where she is today. Congrats, a 42-year old has scared a 20-year old by making him think he has gathered personal information which he has no business having and probably couldn't get anyway. 100% hot air. I know this was said in a nicer way by Wondering but really, this just beats all. Even Cretin was man enough to just say, sorry.

--posted by No Longer Amused @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 17:16 pm EDT

totally off-topic ...

i checked out s-d-s website at: http://www.designwolf.com...and notice that the company: designwolf is in Beavercreek Ohio, referencing Steffe'n Douglas-Smith.

Curious, though, that when doing a reverse look-up on Google for the phone number listed it resolves to a "In H Cha" and "H M Herdle" of Dayton, OH.

A check of the whois database for the domain name also references back to
Designwolf Computer Systems, Stephen Smith, 3782 Skyline Drive, Beavercreek, OH 45432, US

At the SETI homepage the following is listed: "Designwolf ("Old geezer in Ohio seeking extra terrestrial encounter with other than little green men. Must have ...")" with a photograph presumably of S-D-S - http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/cgi?cmd=view_feedback&id=21157

There is a posting to the Columbine Anniversary Board from him at: http://www.columbineanniversary.com/boards/pictures/messages/1/1614.shtml

There is a touching tribute to the Shuttle Columbia disaster which he wrote at his website: http://www.designwolf.com/

--posted by curiousastothosewhohavebeenbickering @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 18:12 pm EDT

Adam:

Thank you for your efforts to facilitate a meaningful discussion of issues raised by the Hornstine matter. Notwithstanding, I am increasingly concerned about the hostile tone and content of some recent posts, especially express threats to publish personal identifiers of persons making comments on this site. The inevitable "chilling" effect upon vigorous debate is the most obvious initial casualty of conduct that any reasonable person finds repellent. You created this site and I think you have done a great job administering it and affording leeway for a frank, if not always illuminating expression of opinion, you may want to reconsider whether some individuals can manage that degree of freedom.

--posted by TM @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 19:48 pm EDT

It is a pity that a man with such prose and dignity is being besmirched by a 20 year old whom I think just is trying to get someone's goat --first me and now S. D-S.

Adam, I am not sure why you allowed him to return. Maybe it's youth vs. youth. Maybe you agree with him. But what was a nice place to have discussions has been a battle either between Cretin and myself or Cretin and S.D-S and/or me. I don't understand why you allowed him back. However, it is your site....

S.D-S: I will e mail you either this eve or sometime tommorrow. I will be out of town most of tomorrow (Yeah, three cheers from my detractors), but I will get to you. I enjoy so hearing your posts. I have pulled up your website several times but do not see the pictures of you, your family, the "boobs", etc. I only get your awards, your systems, designs, photography, etc. When I click on these items, all I get is a click. I told you I was not a computer expert. I suppose I am doing something wrong. I will find your e mail, though.

To the above party who "wonder if Mrs. M. M. is one of the home instructors whose grading of BH's work contributed to her GPA"... I am NOT! Sorry to blow your theory. My writing on this blog is not costing taxpayers any money in my time or with equipment.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 20:00 pm EDT

This is exactly my point, you all will continue to beat a dead horse until you flay the skin from it. I have never said the company wasn't in B'creek, (Dayton is the closest big city)., I have said, funnily enough, that I am not. Gee... this repeated effort to somehow discredit me is old, pointless, has no basis in reality, or fact, and has no bearing on this blog, whatsoever. Get your heads out of your collective asses, and get on topic.

As to an apology, no longer amused, from me, there will not be one re: Cretin, he has done nothing whatsoever to merit one, and I find even his 'apology' to be lacking. He is no more a man, in my opinon, than someone like Saddam Hussien. So hey, don't be amused, I don't care, but don't expect to just liberally attack me without reverse imput either. As for the information, not only is it real, it's there, and I do have it.

Why don't you all get on topic and we'll discuss that? If you can't do that, then take a page from Adam, and stop the personal attacks here. I respond, I don't start, or haven't you figured that out yet?

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 20:02 pm EDT

S. D-S. I was now able to get through your site. You will be hearing from me.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 20:04 pm EDT

I find it interesting that it's okay for you people to pull these stunts, and then think "oh we got him"... The seti posting is oh, I don't know, about 4 years old, while I was still in Ohio, which I've never denied, and in fact have repeatedly stated. H M Cha was the holder of the phone number before the business, which as you know resolves to me, and H. Herdle is the maiden name of my wife. There is nothing nefarious about any of it. Do you have any more little bombs you'd like to hurl, or can we actually get back to the point of this thread?

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 20:11 pm EDT

Mrs. MM:

> Adam, I am not sure why you allowed him to return.

I allowed cretin to return when the news of Harvard rescinding Blair's admission surfaced.

=====

Everyone:

I think there's been enough snooping around trying to figure out everyone's identity. I've been guilty of it before when I erroneously thought Mrs. MM was pretending to be multiple people. As TM and others have stated, this has gone a little overboard. Let's bring the discussion back to Blair Hornstine and away from each other.

I don't want to start moderating this comments section, but I will if the discussion diverges into non-relevant tangents.

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 20:36 pm EDT

Related to the dynamics which this blog has recently experienced ("endured"), I think Clay Shirky's recent address at the O'Reilly Emerging Technology conference (April 2003): "A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy" is quite relevant. Check it out at: http://shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html.

--posted by cambridgema @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 20:37 pm EDT

S. D-S. Most people posting here have a motive in wanting to be heard, me included. I am just attempting to set the record straight for what I believe has been an injustice to Blair. Despite what mnay think of me and my thoughts, I have first hand knowledge of much of the situation.

A couple posters seemed to want to protect their "Harvard" from embarrassment or wanted to protect themselves from embarrassment of going to or graduating from the SCHOOL THAT ALLOWED BLAIR HORNSTINE, THE PLAIGIARIST in. Their friends will make fun...I think they were self-serving.

Some people just want to get their name, initials or AKA in print. Most of them have little knowledge and lots of nothing to say.

Then there is the rest...They/He want to antaganize anything positive about Miss H. They have no life and nothing better to do.

A few, you included, try to explain to the uninformed the way of the world, ie, the case. You describe yourself just to let them know that you are coming from a grown, educated, successful man.

Quite a few suffer from jealousy. They love to see a successful person govel. Those include some who have worked hard to get where they are and others who either missed the "boat," neglected their children, or were too lazy to try.

Too Bad the world isn't perfect.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 20:44 pm EDT

I have heard that many school superintendants are under considerable pressure to spend less on special education, an area that has received a great deal more attention in the last dozen years or so. With state budgets ever decreasing and less going to education in general, we could see a shift away from meeting the needs of the disabled and a return to the "dark ages" where kids with special needs were largely ignored. I have heard "The Weekly Standard" is a conservative publication. Do any of you think the Last article could be used to harm the special education movement?

--posted by DM @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 21:12 pm EDT

DM:

I'm not sure how the Last article will be used, but I think that there will be a refining of the criteria used to determine whether or not a student requires special assistance.

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 21:29 pm EDT

Things to know about me.

I don't have an agenda, I have an opinion.

I don't have the desire to distort the truth, either as I see it, or as I see it skewered.

I don't appreciate the personal attacks that have been basically ignored, and no one with any sense of self, or heritage should.

When I'm wrong, I say I'm wrong.

When I'm right, I'm relentless.

I think enough has been said about these topics. While you were looking, curious, did you notice the tributes to the 9-11 victims on my site? Did you notice the wealth of information about the systems we build? Did you notice the political page, my personal soap box?

The Seti page shows a 2002 date, which is when I believe they transferred an old account to my current account, and moved my profile there. The profile is about 4 years old.

Regarding Columbine, if you went to the first post of the thread, you would have noted that like this thread, I responded to personal attacks about me, when as I did there, I tried to return the thread to the victims of that senseless violence. There are several posts on that site, not just the one, and taken out of context, anyone could draw an unfavorable conclusion, but taken in sequence, I think it would be hard to do so. Ultimately, the person who attacked me did apologize to me, and that was the end of the debate. The difference here, before you all say that so and so apologized, is that I don't believe so and so means it, and I'm not interested in his half felt efforts to escape possible negative repercussions in this case.

My point is this, I have defended myself because to ignore the baseless attacks would have encouraged yet more of them. You have every right to disagree with my methods, and I encourage you to do so, but you do not have the right, nor do I, to simply attack without justification, and expect, or recieve any quarter from a counter attack.

With that said, I retire, I've not the time, the desire, or the inclination to continue to play this childish little game of back biting, sniper posting. That you can find information about me is a pretty good indication that I am who I say I am, and that I indeed, have nothing to hide. Take it for what it's worth.

Adam, good luck with your blog, it's actually quite fun, and I enjoy your trailers, it's what got me here in the first place what seems like so very long ago.

Enjoy.

Das Vi.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 21:36 pm EDT

Granted I have not read all of your little blurbs, since I just happened to stumble upon this site, I have not much to add, except for a few observations. Mrs. M.M. should stop using the site to address a certain S. D-S, because it seems to me that she is craving attention, and even starting controversy...i haven't read one thing about Blair in maybe the past ten or so comments...S. D-S should stop being so defensive and if he is offended by something someone says on this site, perhaps he should take his unmistakeably pompus comments elsewhere, because I for one am not impressed, the only thing I've learned from this site is that S. D-S apparently works with computers, used to live in Ohio, and that he apparently has a family and such...so why is it that he is wasting his time here, surely there are more important things he could take an interest in, such as his children, or if they've grown, perhaps his wife, or maybe he just can't stand to be away from his admirer, Mrs. M.M. for too long. And as for this quite off topic comment -- everyone else is doing it, why can't I?

--posted by cows moo @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 21:40 pm EDT

cambridgema: Clay Shirky's address was worth the time to read it. Thank you.

--posted by MA reader @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 21:45 pm EDT

I think press reports of Blair Hornstine's suit have hit a nerve because people suspect that special education programs can be abused.
Confidentiality does not help the reputation of special ed, because children are not reliable witnesses, yet parents tend to believe them. The teachers and administrators, on the other hand, cannot satisfy others' curiousity or concern by discussing antother student's disability.
Example (NOT based on any particular people): Johnny says, "the teacher spends a lot of time with Davie." Parent hears: "my child is ignored. Davie is monopolizing the teacher's attention." Odds are, the parent won't have the courage to ask the teacher--courteously--if his child's report is accurate. Instead, the parent is quite likely to complain to another parent, at a party or the bus stop, feeding a chain of inaccurate gossip.

--posted by MA reader @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 22:01 pm EDT

FYI: I do not know of a school that takes a child's opinion as to whether he/she is disabled. USUALLY, the social/psychologic team plus a medical doctor is needed to confer disabled status for "special" education. The report is ALWAYS confidential. Only those who need to know are in "the loop." A specific part of that disability could be given to a teacher who must meet that special need. The school administrator, Board of Ed, principal, etc. are on a "need to know" basis.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 22:22 pm EDT

Adam:

Thank you.

It may be an interesting and opportune time to discuss the potential terms and/or settlement value of the pending action. The district court previously entered an injunction in favor of Ms. Hornstine, respective counsel are scheduled to conference the case with the court on August 13, and there appears to be some sense that a possible settlement is near.

Ther are material differences in evaluating the settlement value of a case as opposed to its potential "judgment" value. I suggest a few general considerations; timing of the negotiations, the backgrounds of respective counsel, the existence of available insurance coverage for the claim (including deductibles), the actual or perceived liability positions of the parties, and the possible role of the court.

--posted by TM @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 23:38 pm EDT

Adam, please indulge me one last comment on the S. D-S./Cretin fiasco.

S. D-S. claims to have considerable personally identifiable information about Cretin. He, indeed, even threatened to use it. I pointed out that the acquisition of such information is a violation of federal law, if not for a legitimate reason.

S. D-S. responded: "The information was obtained by local authorities following up on various complaints regarding the behavior, and statements of a certain individual, and released, per Federal Statute to me, should I decide to persue, as is my legal right, a complaint against the said individual."

There is nothing that Cretin posted that is actionalble, either civilly or criminally, albeit some is in very bad taste. Cretin should review the legal definitions of "libel and slander." I don't think he's done either.

Further, "local authorities" cannot reveal the personally identifiable information S. D-S. claims to have, even if they had some basis to pursue it. Even they have to have some basis in law to collect such information. S. D-S. will have to show us where in federal law (that means a citation to a specific statute) "local authorities" are permitted to collect and give out to private citizens the information he claims to have, particularly based on anything posted on this site.

My advice, Cretin, and to all others whom anyone threatens in these posts, is to print out the entire thread, and should there be any reason to believe that another poster is pursuing you, contact the FBI immediatly, and let them do their thing. This is serious stuff and should not be passed off lightly.

--posted by Wondering @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 23:52 pm EDT

Does anyone know the dollar difference between a settlement claim and a judgment? The only reported cases that I found discussing actual damages under the NJ Law Agaist Discrimination which may come into play here were one dealing with sexual harassment of a woman on a north Jersey police force and a case of a dentist who refused to treat a patient with AIDS on one occasion. The police officer recovered over a million. The AIDS patient was awarded $25,000 punitive and $25,000 compensatory damages and attorney fees over $30,000. In the latter case, the judge refused to cover the attorney's time giving press interviews. Earlier I wondered what being forced to miss your high school graduation is worth. Based on the reasoning in the employment cases, climate or atmosphere (here, I would say, at school) is relevant. What is the usual liability coverage? Any ideas anone?

--posted by DM @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 7:45 am EDT

Thank you, wondering. This thread has really gone off the deep end. I have never contacted S.D-S outside of this message board, so everything I have said is documented here.

I have not broken any laws. If I have, I would appreciate if S.D-S informed me of them. My only "crime" is vehemently disagreeing with S.D-S. If he wants to threaten me to shut me up, I am letting him know right now that it *WILL* work. I will not continue to jeopardize my safety, if that is what posting here means.

If S.D-S doesn't want there to be dissenting opinions on this blog, and if he will go so far as to threaten me, I am not ashamed to turn tail and run away. This is my *life* we are talking about. There is no reason for anything that has been said here to enter the "real" word. If S.D-S wants to make this a "real" issue, I'd just as soon stop posting here.

S.D-S, I am more than willing to drop this NOW. You are really starting to scare me. How do I know that vigilante thugs won't bust down my door tomorrow morning? If you promise to leave me alone, I will do the same to you. Thank you.

--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 7:46 am EDT

My suggestion would be to look into the Civil rights acts of this government, under hate crimes, and then follow up on things like "shouldn't you be scalping women and children?"

It is a violation of any persons civil rights to imply, or suggest that because of their heritage or background, that person has a predisposition to violence or any other such hate/race motivated action.

That is all that I have to say about it.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 8:14 am EDT

An interesting thing to note - and when interpreted as fact - is that blair wasn't forced to miss her graduation ... she elected to miss it. She chose to forego giving a valedictory address. [I wish she hadn't chosen to miss the ceremony. As someone noted earlier, she could have used the occasion to share what her life has/had been like and how she has met the many challenges as of late...she could have apologized for the plagiarism, she could have publicly dropped the lawsuit - or, actually explain the rationale while she was continuing to pursue it, etc. I think she might have even had a chance to bring everyone around to understanding her position, allowing her fellow graduates to learn from the incident.]

While Harvard has never "officially" announced that Blair's admission was rescinded - nor has any reason for the offer's withdrawal been disclosed (we don't know all of the facts that the Harvard Admissions office considered - i.e. there could have been misrepresentations in her application; her essay(s) could have contained "borrowed words"...or the plagiarism in the 5 newspaper articles could have been the "tipping point"), her attorney (Jacobs) has been quoted as saying she voluntarily withdrew her application. While this smacks of "you can't fire me, I quit"...nonetheless such a statement casts the Harvard situation in a light wherein Blair elected (i.e. chose) to withdraw. She is therefore responsible for these decisions/actions.

--posted by cambridgema @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 8:25 am EDT

Final note:

Cretin, I don't do thugs, I do legalities. You want this to go away, okay, fine. You take the time, you find the places where your actions have precitpitated mine, and you address those. Where you have insulted my people, my race, and you address those with an apology, and it'll go away.

Wondering, you could really help at this point by stopping, rather than egging on a situation that I completely agree is out of hand. Questioning the veracity of the information obtained based on the fact that it was obtained re: hate crimes and language, is an interesting area. In the Indian lands, we consider a hate crime someone calling us "Tonto", because it is offensive to us. That may be why you don't understand the defensive and ongoing struggle we have to make sure that our beliefs are respected, and our culture is not treated with disdain.

I'm reminded of the one writer who wouldn't address the King plagiarism because he didn't want Jessie Jackson or Al Sharpton coming by. Consider me the Jessie Jackson of Indian Affairs.

Adam, please indulge this, and lets see if the integrity he claims to have is real.

I'm ready to accept an apology based on your actions Cretin, not just because someone said they'd ban you.
Identify your actions, and I'll back off.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 8:34 am EDT

Notice that S. D-S. did not cite to any federal statute that would permit "local authorities" to collect and to provide to private citizens the information he claims to have regarding Cretin. The imporper collection of such personally identifiable information is a violation of federal law. There is already enough here to form the basis for a federal investigation.

Since computer security is S. D-S's business, he should know better, and should also know better than to claim he has such information. Has he collected that information on others here?

As I said above, this is very serious stuff and should not be taken lightly.

--posted by Wondering @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 8:35 am EDT

Cretin:

If you feel threatened by S-D-S, you should contact your local police and/or the FBI. In looking back at yesterday’s posts it is reasonable to infer that there are implied, if not, overt threats being put forth:

I'm relentless. I don't know mercy, and I don't give quarter. You will lose, and you will wish you'd never reared your idiotic head into this fray. Remember, I don't care, I have money to burn, and it would do me nothing better than to see you go down in flames. Any questions, Cretin, is that clear enough for you, or do you need a guide to figure it out. You have done nothing but be an idiot from day one; on the final day, you will know the difference between reality, and the game you thought you had mastered. (posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:16 pm EDT)

I wish you would take me up on my offer to fly you out here. There are, after all, lots of steep cliffs you could accidentally fall off of. (posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:40 pm EDT)

As for your repeated attacks upon my heritage, be advised, I know more about you than you know about me. Don't be surprised to hear from certain of my people who find your kind of racism repugnant…. I know where you live. (posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:40 pm EDT)

You're worthless, pathetic, and stupid. You represent the worst of society, and frankly, I am tired of responding to you on this forum. You will hear from me, you worthless excuse for a human, but it won't be here from this point forward. I do know who you are, unlike others who think they do, I do know, and you will come to that awareness sooner than you think. So deny it, I don't care. In the end, he who laughs last laughs hardest. I always laugh last. (posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:48 pm EDT)

--posted by cambridgema @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 8:43 am EDT

Wondering,

Will you get off of your horse, or do you have a dog in this fight that we don't know about.

As to a federal investigation, go for it, I mean really, go for it, enough is enough, and you continue to egg it on.

I am well within my rights to collect certain information regarding persons or entities that may or who I consider dangerous, and or a threat to my self, business or family. What I do with that information is a matter of legal interpertation, and since I have not used the information for personal gain, I have violated no laws.

Your attempts to inflame this issue even more are obvious, and I would suggest that they have no basis in reality, and even less justification here.

Back off.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 8:43 am EDT

Okay,

I've had enough.

Since you other people without anything to say when this slime was attacking me, but now you want to jump in and play... good.

Cretin, they have destroyed any possibilty that I would even consider an apology. Between wondering and Cambrige and their selective bull, I have had enough.

I will let this go forward. I suggest that anyone who feels a need to persue this, contact an attorney and have at it. Mean time, I'm done and that's that.

Y'all have a nice one.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 8:47 am EDT

Ms. H. was "told" that the police and school could not GUARANTEE her safety at graduation as it was suposed to be held outdoors on a wide open football field. At the last minute, it rained, forcing the ceremony indoors with a very limited amount of people being able to attend (including press). The practices for the graduation including speeches were practiced for a couple weeks. Blair had to decide by the beginning of practices what she was going to do. Because of the SAFETY issue, she declined to attend.

As published in this past Sunday's New York times (NJ section), a spokesman for Harvard said Harvard regretted the publication of news referring to her rejection, a letter went to the Hornstines saying so, and the case was being referred to the Harvard lawyers.

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 8:51 am EDT

S.D-S: DON'T LEAVE US. You always have something prophetic to say. Cretin is 20. First he was on my case. Now yours. He is only a child, maybe childish.

Cretin: How is tomorrow? 11a.m. Starbucks on Main

--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 8:55 am EDT

Given the attempts on this thread to destroy my character, and to ignore the obvious activities of certain persons, I have collected and posted in their entireity, all of the words, NOT SOME, that demonstrate Cretin's harassment, Racisim, and defaming and slanderous posts. I apologize for the length of this thread, and I sincerely hope that ADAM will let it be. It is also my final words on this topic, other than to accept the apology that I believe is forthcoming from Cretin. Thank you for your indulgence.

This is where it begins.

Harassment. I think we can all agree that Cretin began Harassing Mrs. MM, using phrases like Maggot Mouth, ECT. To describe her. I offered a riposte to help them clear their differences on neutral territory.
“MaggotMouth,

Give it up! You have been uncovered! At least get a new name like a REAL troll...

And we do know your personal feelings. Plagiarism is OK. You have lost all credibility by defending a plagiarist. You would be better off sticking to the valedictorian issue.

If you ever get around to it, you might want to visit Moorestown. It is a charming little town.
--posted by cretin @ Friday, July 4 2003, 11:07 am EDT
Creaptin: I would almost choose to meet you for coffee on Main Street, if you wouldn't "wet your pants" when you actually saw me.

Because I know you, I feel this ungodly reason to laugh at your insecurities. I promise the rest of you that I will no longer dignify his reponses.
--posted by Mrs. M. M. @ Friday, July 4 2003, 11:11 am EDT
MaggotMouth,

Trust me, I wouldn't be the one wetting my pants.

And every town has a Main Street. You'll have to do better than that if you want to pretend that you live in Moorestown.

Why are you so insecure? Why do you feel the need to latch onto the Hornstines, people you don't even know? Why do you feel the need to defend plagiarism? Are there some skeletons in your closet?

P.S. If you know me so well, prove it.
--posted by cretin @ Friday, July 4 2003, 11:14 am EDT
I'll make you a deal Cretin: I'll fly both you and Mrs. MM to Colorado and we can all have coffee in Gunnison, on Main Street, which incidently, is one of the only streets in town. After which we'll discuss all of this rationally as we overlook the 3000 foot drop into the Black Canyon of the Gunnison. Later, I'll even show you the incredible sites found in this wonderful state, and show you why it's commonly called "Gods' Playground".

After all that, when we're all happy that we've been introduced, and know who everybody is, I'll put you back on an airplane and send you home, safe and sound, happy in the awareness of finally knowing who is who.

Please note however, that once you arrive in Denver, you'll have to take a commuter flight to Gunnison, or Aspen, and I'll drive over and get you. The mountains don't allow for much larger jets in this area.

Let me know, I'll be happy to arrange it. However, there are some catches. You have to stop with the names, and Mrs. MM also has to agree.

In this fashion you can resolve your differences face to face with a neutral third party. Otherwise, I suggest you take Mrs. MM up on her offer and meet her for coffee on your Main Street, and stop this pointless and ultimately futile bashing party you've got going on.

So, what do you think, Cretin, Mrs. MM?
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Friday, July 4 2003, 12:47 pm EDT
rotflmao!

S. D-S, you have made my day! But please be careful - from what you've seen of me and MM, I don't think you'd want to be caught in the middle of one of our fights!

Plus, I don't think either of us would be able to stop the name-calling long enough to get anywhere.

It was a nice thought, though!
--posted by cretin @ Friday, July 4 2003, 13:11 pm EDT

I made an attempt to stop the harassment which was detracting from the blog, and causing most of us regular posters to be very uncomfortable with Cretin’s ongoing assault on dignity and the integrity of the blog. Interestingly, not one of you jumped in to help, apparently you agree that it’s okay to harass, defame, and ridicule people over their opinions. It reminds me of the dozens of folks who watched a murder but did nothing, including calling the police to prevent it.
“I have to wonder how long it will take for this to die down. It has certainly become a shouting down blog for Cretin. Enough is enough, really! You have totally usurped the very point of this site, and made it into your personal playpen. Change your darn diaper, son.

Mrs. MM, for the record, I posted the IP info to hopefully slow down Cretin. He continues to prove himself to be about half witted and completely pointless.

Cretin, this is not about you, or what you want to scream. If you like screaming, then try scream therapy, I hear it works wonders. As for your continued assault on this blog, and your completely pointless postings, frankly, I'd rather hear about the grass growing.

You're obviously spoiled, and without any socially redeeming values that would even make me want to continue trying to get you to get on the topic, and off the personal attacks. Even the owner of the site has repeatedly admonished posters, in general, to get back on topic.

If it were up to me, I would ban your IP so that you can not post, but it isn't. I defended a religiously motivated poster, though I completely disagree with him, because of the appearance of censorship, however, it is one thing to defend that, particularly when it was ONE post. You on the other hand, simply won't stop until you are forced to stop. In business, and in a survival situation that may be a good thing, but in conversation it's a waste of everyone's time, effort, and intellect.

You haven't proved anything, except that you're relentless. You haven't gained anything except a full compliment of people who cringe when you post something, and you haven't earned an iota of respect for the position you've adopted. You even debate factual information, and when you're done ignoring the truth, you go on witch hunts...

Look in the mirror, Cretin, the witch is there. Think The Wizard of Oz, and put your anger behind you, so you can join us in a chorus of "Ding Dong, The Witch is Dead". Either that, or just go away, you're angst is now old and pointless, and to be honest, I think you just got your a** whipped by a resident of Moorestown. How much more are you willing to get wrong in order to scream last?
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Friday, July 4 2003, 20:37 pm EDT”

At this point he begins to defame me, corrupting my name, and attacking me in the same fashion he attacked Mrs. MM.
“Ad hominem attacks are logically fallacious. Please rephrase your arguments in a logically valid manner!

MaggotMouth, you're getting YOUR ass whipped! Not only are you racist, but you refuse to realize it.

I don't care who S. Douglas-Smith-Jones is.

I am an extremely bright man who knows how to pull myself up from the bootstraps. Live and learn. Get a life! Grow up! Change your attitude!
--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 5 2003, 11:23 am EDT”
Adam then attempted to prevent the ongoing assault on dignity with this post…
“Everyone:

Spend a day away from the computer and look what happens to this comments section!

This discussion has degenerated into a broken record of personal attacks. Please reduce such chatter, or I will block IP addresses and/or end comments on this page.

The next steps for this page includes creating a table of facts, rumors, and lies, based on all of the information available on the Internet and from this comments board. This will help us understand that the issue is more varied than simple black and white.

-adam
--posted by Adam @ Saturday, July 5 2003, 14:54 pm EDT”

This post was made, which only points out that Cretins actions are plagiaristic, and harassing. Cretins responses are self explanatory, and exhibit his refusal to stop harassing and simply add to the discussion. Still no one not Cambridge, or wondering, no one asked for this to stop, and for cretin to desist.
For TG:

Look in the mirror, Cretin, the witch is there. Think The Wizard of Oz, and put your anger behind you, so you can join us in a chorus of "Ding Dong, The Witch is Dead". Either that, or just go away, you're angst is now old and pointless, and to be honest, I think you just got your a** whipped by a resident of Moorestown. How much more are you willing to get wrong in order to scream last?

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Friday, July 4 2003, 20:37 pm EDT

Look in the mirror, MaggotMouth, the witch is there. Think The Wizard of Oz, and put your anger behind you, so you can join us in a chorus of "Ding Dong, The Witch is Dead". Either that, or just go away, you're angst is now old and pointless, and to be honest, I think you just got your ass whipped by a resident of Moorestown. How much more are you willing to get wrong in order to scream last?

--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 5 2003, 11:54 am EDT

As I said, Cretin is a plagiarist. He has spent so much time trying to rip, hurt, insult, or in general disrupt this board, I felt it only fair to point this out. He is exactly what he claims Blair is, and while there is a general consensus that Blair did indeed plagiarize in the Courier Post, we have also generally agreed that it has no bearing on her status as Valedictorian, although it could affect her admission to Harvard.

Cretin is a lot of things, an original thinker isn't one of them. His 'theft' of my words is obvious, in fact he only changed a name, from Cretin, to "MaggotMouth", and made no other changes to MY material. Cretin is guilty of plagiarism. Is that worth 2.7 million, I dunno, but maybe I'll try and find out, since it seems that's the answer these days. I call a spade a spade, if that's immature, then sue me, and I'll be the oldest kid on the playground.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, July 5 2003, 22:50 pm EDT
Well, he did spell ass, instead of my less detracting a**, but the point is the same.
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, July 5 2003, 22:51 pm EDT
Since there was no place for footnotes, I did not plagiarize.
--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 5 2003, 23:17 pm EDT
Douglass-Smith-Jones has spent so much time trying to rip, hurt, insult, or in general disrupt this board. Now I am calling a spade a spade.
--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 5 2003, 23:19 pm EDT
This post then appeared showing Cretin’s actions on many different blogs, including slander and defamation, see the thieves comment from #2 pencil, and the comments from hit and run.
FROM #2 pencil -
I went to Ms. Hornstine's high school, and I am familiar with her family. They are manipulative, conniving theives. Stay away from them!
Cretin | 05.10.03 - 8:37 pm | #

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God, Blair gives Jews a bad name. Just to let you guys know, we're NOT all like her!!!

Let's hope Mirkin's suit is successful...

And seniors: don't be afraid to walk out of graduation if Blair is well enough to attend! That'll show her.
Cretin | 05.12.03 - 12:48 am | #

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amazing. She is so twisted that she sued to be the sole valedictorian, knowing full well that she wouldn't be "well enough" to attend graduation!?!? Wow. Isn't the whole point of being valedictorian to make your silly speech at graduation? No one in the real world cares what your class rank was.
Cretin | 05.12.03 - 3:11 am | #

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Unlearned Hand -
OK, I went to Ms. Hornstine's high school. Thank god I'm out of there now. Anyway, I am familiar with the antics of this family. Ms. Hornstine's "illness" is quite a convenient invention. She was able to study at home and be graded by "tutors." With the help of her father, she was able to choose who would grade her essays and which activities to join to ensure her spot at Harvard. She is following in her brother's footsteps by pretending to care of the community, all the while manipulating the system to her benefit.

As much as I hated that high school and was glad to be rid of the teacher and administrators there, I must say that I would have hated it even more if I had attended while Blair was there.

She has played the system well. Let's see how she fares when she is forced to be with people who can play it even better than she has.

Posted by: cretin at May 10, 2003 08:28 PM

Blair owes US an apology for costing the school district (i.e. US) so much money.

Are you Blair, by the way? You sound like her, except for the fact the you haven't burst into tears yet.

Was Blair's A+ phys ed grade factored into her GPA? If not, it should be.

Do you deny that daddy instructed her tutors to give her A+'s?

Do you deny that the grading standards are different?

Do you have proof that her "disability" even exists?

The fact of the matter is that her grades starting slipping during sophomore year, so daddy realized that his daughter's interests would be better served if she got to study at home.

Daddy is a very influential man. It's no secret how Blair got all those A+'s.

Posted by: cretin at May 11, 2003 04:12 PM


From Hit and Run -
I graduated from Moorestown High in 2001. I can assure you that all the awful things that people are saying about Ms. Hornstine are TRUE. I wouldn't put anything past her and her family.

Posted by: cretin on May 12, 2003 01:25 AM



For all of you that read Cretin....is there a common thread of hate and sham authority that goes through his comments? He hated High school, hates the Hornstine Family and the Father (problems? Up before him in Court?), gives advise to the senior class to walk out (troublemaker?), uses STRONG words like ASSURE, FAMILIAR,MANIPULATIVE, CONNIVING,THEIVES (his spelling) and TWISTED. WHAT IS HE MISSING BESIDES A LIFE?

Now, we are subjected to more of him on this blog. This blog used to be interesting.
--posted by H @ Sunday, July 6 2003, 0:33 am EDT
In the spirit of intellectual diversity, I think everyone except ME should be banned from this message board.

And in response to the allegations of plagiarism, I would like to take this opportunity to respond. I was recently advised by DouglASS-Smith-Jones that I had not properly cited my sources for posts that I submitted to this message board. These voluntary posts were not written for class assignments. I kept notes on what I had read. When finalizing my thoughts, I, like most every teenager who has use of a computer, cut and pasted my ideas together. Since there was no place for footnotes, I decided not to attribute my ideas to those who originally created them. But please remember, I am not a professional message board poster. I am now cognizant that my actions are controversial. But I stand by them and will not apologize.

Thank you and god bless.
--posted by cretin @ Sunday, July 6 2003, 14:32 pm EDT
Finally, Adam blocked Cretin, and for a while the blog returned to the actual point of it’s existence.
Cretin's IP Addresses have been blocked from further posting.

-adam
--posted by Adam @ Monday, July 7 2003, 13:09 pm EDT
On July 11, Adam let Cretin back in… In my opinion from that point the blog descended into kayos.
Posting has now been reenabled for everyone.

-adam
--posted by Adam @ Friday, July 11 2003, 22:02 pm EDT
This should have been my cue to leave.
I'm back!
--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 12 2003, 19:33 pm EDT
Looking for a bone to chew?
The question remains:

WHERE is Mrs. M.M.?????
--posted by cretin @ Sunday, July 13 2003, 14:13 pm EDT
The harassment begins again…
Mrs. M.M./Mrs. H. - shouldn't you be doing your daughter's college shopping for her? God knows she can't pack her own bags.

I know you think BCC is a top school, but COME ON. Oh wait, you're moving to Boston. I'm not familiar with the community colleges in the greater Boston area. Maybe you could educate us.
--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 12:01 pm EDT
I get dragged back in, though I’d made no comments in six days. The abuse of my name continues, without let up.
E, you obviously understand nothing. Mrs. M.M., Douglass-Smith-Jones, and others have made it clear that Blair can do no wrong. Are you starting to get it now? Everything she does must be right. It is we who are wrong.
--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 15:10 pm EDT
My response to this even included the point that he was somewhat more respectful… I was hoping.
Well, take a few days and find your name in more pointless tripe. Cretin, you really need to take a break, while your posts are certainly more respectful, the abuse of my name is childish and frankly, boring. My name does not include Jones, and I have never defended on this thread or anywhere else, plagiarism. I have said, and I maintain, that the paper carries a measure of responsibility. For what it's worth, people who work in my ad division do not plagiarize, nor do they work blind, the copy editors go over their every word, using sophisticated software to weed out possible copyright violations. I invested a large sum of money in this software because I want what I do to be original. It is. To imply that I have said Blair was not capable of wrong doing is misleading at the best, and at the worst, it is an outright lie.

Every person is capable of wrongdoing, and your personal assaults on people throughout this thread are ample proof of your true intentions. You act as if you are the only person who has either a.) a valid opinion, or b.) a brain. You are not, and frankly your opinions show a bias that extends beyond acrimony at what you perceive Blair to have done, and into personal dislike for the entire family, which appears based on personal experience rather than objective review of the known facts.

You have taken words I've written and twisted them so many directions it's a wonder that I can recognize them as words I once wrote. Given that you're a plagiarist yourself, how then, are you any better than Blair? Should we not endeavor to deny you any right, or entitlement because of your actions? Should we not paintball your house, make lots of threats, (including death threats), and generally make your life a living hell because of what YOU did? After all, it's what you recommend for Blair and her family. Isn't what's good for the goose good for the gander? The point is that you are no better, and she is no worse than you, or I. She made a mistake, a big one, but not a criminal one. She may have some personal liability, but she most certainly does not have to live her life with her head stuck in the sand.

Martin Luther King Jr. plagiarized most of his Doctorial Thesis. Of course, he was so beyond all of this petty stuff, that it was overlooked, but the fact remains. I am not advocating plagiarism, in fact I detest it. I have said all along that Blair will pay a price for it, CambridgeMa asked what I would think if Harvard said no to Blair, and I said she would have reaped what she'd sown, and now... she has, mutual or otherwise.

What price would you have her pay for all of this, any of you? She's lost Harvard, she's lost respect, and face, and her family has been outcast from the social circle it inhabited. Mass murders are less ostracized than Blair has been, which goes to show the true mentality of the people of Moorestown. They would show more mercy to a dog, or a cat, and who's to say the dog wasn't rabid, or the cat hadn't just got though killing the other neighbor's bird? This whole thing is way out of proportion, and the plagiarism, while an issue that has made it's importance known, is not a world shaking, earth shattering event, and to trumpet this girl's actions, when the erstwhile Dr. King, Jr. was essentially ignored in a Doctorial Thesis is not only wrong, it's arrogant, repugnant, and ultimately, pointless. Move on, get a life, or at least put this in perspective.
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 15 2003, 23:27 pm EDT
While he finally learned to spell my name, the harassment continued…
MaggotMouth, get over yourself. You've been wrong countless times before, and you're wrong now. We all know it.

I know it makes you feel special to be the only Blair apologist on this web site, but it only makes you look STUPID.

Why don't you take your OPINIONS and shove them where the sun don't shine...

S. Douglas-Smith, I am aware that MLK Jr. was a plagiarist. So was JFK. I'm not a fan of either of them.
--posted by cretin @ Wednesday, July 16 2003, 7:44 am EDT
A tongue in cheek, playful and obviously satirical take on things was made by me… I guess this is where Cretin decided he couldn’t take what he dishes out.
I have the answers, all of them, got em from a source at the paper who's related to everyone of those obviously misguided, (Cretin), don't know what to do next folks who keep on harping on things discussed and dismissed what seems like eons ago.

According to my source; Blair really doesn't exist, she is a holographic reproduction of the problem child of Kadri, commonly called Cretin. Kadri created the hologram and involved the whole Hornstine family in the deal by bribing them with mafia money and the promise of a mafia attorney, in order to bring attention to his school system in order to make the transition from local school boss to Harvard dictator.

However this came to be, Kadri's problem child befriended a Doctor with a smart son, and then the trouble began. Kadri simply couldn't kill off his hologram so he gave her a disease that would allow her to spend most of her time in the holoprojector absorbing volumes of information which caused Cretin to become insanely jealous of the projection because he had fallen hopelessly in love with it, though he knew it was really only projected light.

Hatching a plan to discredit the Blair Switch Project, Cretin wrote five essays for the local paper, using cut and pasted quotes from various sources. After the suit was filed, Cretin arranged for the papers staff to write a story about Blair, hoping to force the discovery of the ruse. What happened, however, was that the staff figured out that Cretin had plagiarized much of Blairs writings, and submitted them for publication.

Kadri, and Hornstine, seeing the opportunity to remove the spotlight from the possible discovery, turned off the projecter, claiming Blair was sent on a trip elsewhere to avoid publicity. Unfortunately, due to Cretin's misguided attempt to capture the light source for his own amusment resulted in world wide media attention.

Now in an effort to downplay the whole mess, Cretin loiters at various web blogs making like he wasnt' the actual cause of the entire event, hoping to drive attention away from the blogs by acting out on his evil plans to besmirch the entire project by discrediting his fascination with the Blair Light Switch Project, and as before his efforts have only added to the situation, an air of ignorance and rediculousness that only someone of his unlearned ways could have failed to predict.

In the ultimate irony, a double for the holographic Blair has been discovered, and is busily working on ways to overcome the continued blunders of theis project, and return it to the obscurity from which it rose.

This ruse too, has been discovered, and will be covered in the next edition of the X Files, after Scully is replaced by an alien of unknown lineage.

I swear, this is all true, my source at the paper, (Cretin), wouldn't lie. :)
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 0:38 am EDT
The truth is out there. Won't anyone believe it?
--posted by mulder @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 1:31 am EDT
With this exchange I thought maybe he had been diffused… I was so wrong.
Haha Douglass-Smith, if I'm Kadri, then who are you!?!? Kenny Mirkin??? Your posts are amusing, but to quote Shakespeare (attribution is fun!): "Brevity is the soul of wit." In other words, no one is impressed by your long posts. I just read the first and last paragraphs. There's not enough time in the day. Please consider condensing them!

??/aThought/Mrs. M.M./Blair: I am currently attending college. It is east of the Mississippi River. Why don't you tell us about your level of education? Or are YOU jealous????
--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 9:23 am EDT
Oh, I see, I'm Kadri's love child? Who's my mommy!?
--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 9:36 am EDT
an unidentified egg donor.
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 11:02 am EDT
Oh, btw, I could fake typo's, too, craptin!
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 11:05 am EDT
Of course even wishful thinking didn’t end the harassment, it only got worse… Including implying my mother took drugs, that I suffered from Downs Syndrome, had no education and demanding my banning from the blog… Notice also, the intentional misspelling of my name, yet again.
“DouglASS - I don't know why you are projecting. But it is most immature. If you want to see intellectually inferior, look in the mirror. What proof do you propose I give of my education? There is no proof that would satisfy you. You don't believe that I grew up in Moorestown, while I knew of the death of a student and Mrs. M.M. did not? What is wrong with you? Downs Syndrome? What WAS your mother smoking???

YOU have no credible position. You merely type hundreds of words of blather, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. (Yes, that was Macbeth.)

Try going to night school. Get yourself an education, a job, and a life! As I have said before, ad hominem attacks are logically fallacious. You will probably tell me to stop repeating myself, but I wouldn't need to if you would just stop MAKING THE SAME LOGICAL MISTAKES!!!

And please stop being so "childish, hypocritical, self centered, petulant and incapable of reality in context or opinion, or fact." Thanks!
--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 14:57 pm EDT

S. Douglas-Smith is the most hypocritical, childish, and stupid person who has ever posted on this blog! His technique of attacking the person instead of the issue rivals that of Mrs. M.M. Come on, mods! Show some spine AND BAN HIM!
--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 15:01 pm EDT”
He then makes it personal: who the hell cares about Indians?
I encourage everyone to read the archives. Read how S.Douglas-Smith has contributed nothing to this discussion. See how he has taken up so much space with his ramblings that it was necessary for Adam to start a new page.

See first-hand how hypocritical S.Douglas-Smith is. He has done nothing except attack me, an innocent victim. He has bombarded me with logically fallacious arguments, which I must single-handedly fend off. Then he attacks me even more when I defend myself. He has attempted to change the subject so many times. I don't think he has posted a single comment about Blair. He has talked about Indians, sure. But who the hell cares about Indians? There are many other blogs out there. He has only chosen this one because he sees an opportunity to attack a minority: ME.

So, S.Douglas-Smith, your time here is up. You are made in the same mold as Louis Hornstine and Paul Kadri. Unless you are planning on contributing something to this discussion, why don't you go smoke your peace pipe. Your little pow wow is OVER!
--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 15:11 pm EDT
And he continues to insult my heritage, and education… harassing me even more.
I use the terms ad hominem, fallacious, and ad populum because S.Douglas-Smith's actions warrant the use of such terms. If you are tired of me saying them, take it up with him. And S.Douglas-Smith does need a lesson in English. If you haven't noticed, his posts are overly long. A high school level English course should help him with that. A course in philosophy and/or logic would also help him (and you) formulate better arguments. Don't you understand? Logical fallacies make your arguments WRONG!!!!

And sorry, John T, but I haven't lied. I am 20 years old. I grew up in Moorestown, NJ and graduated from Moorestown High School. And I am now attending a well-known university that is located east of the Mississippi River. What else would you like to know?

Finally, although I am an atheist, my blood is Jewish enough that Hitler would have had me gassed. And I never said that I was American Indian. I am native American and proud of it. You are twisting my words.

Have a nice weekend!
--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 19:40 pm EDT
Now, he begins to use words that are known to be derogatory, “Tonto” and continues to attack my heritage, and background. Interestingly, still no one, not Cambridge, or wondering have bothered to say enough, though the tone of this attack is worsening. He even accused me of being the reason there is rape and murder in the world. But gee, that’s not enough even for someone to step up and say, enough cretin. Now I’m concerned that this person is disturbed and represents a threat to me and my family, so I start looking. Rape and murder. Being associated with such horrible events is enough to destroy a person, and their business… I have something to lose.
Like it or not, I am just as native as you are. But unlike me, you exhibit the typical hunter gatherer values of "Attack, maim, and kill." I am proud of my European heritage, but I am also proud to be a NATIVE American. You cannot take that away from me. You can go on and on and on about your "relationship" with the land, but the truth of the matter is that you wouldn't understand MY relationship with it, or my values, if they fell out of the sky and hit YOU on the head. Get off of your high horse, Tonto...

EVERYTHING you have said about me is a perfect description of YOU. Please look in the mirror. Or do Indians not have mirrors? Anyway, YOU are the embodiment of arrogance. YOU throw tantrums like a child when you are contradicted. YOU have continuously attempted to belittle ME, a minority. YOU give humans a bad name. YOU are the reason why there is rape and murder in this world. All you do is attack attack and attack some more. You have no idea what logic is, and why it is important to keep personal attacks out of your arguments. These strategies didn't work for your hunter gatherer ancestors, and they will not work for you.

You will continue to prove my points until you do us all the favor of leaving this Earth. If you continue acting the way you have acted here, someone may come to the decision that it is necessary to put you out of commission. Permanently. And quite frankly, I wouldn't blame that person one bit.
--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 22:40 pm EDT
He then repeats this comment, and adds to it, including questioning my sanity. I am by now extremely concerned, and contact my local authorities to obtain information regarding this person to see if he is indeed as unbalanced as he appears.
People like S. Douglas-Smith are the reason that rape and murder exist. All they do is attack innocent people. They serve no social function except to provide police officers with jobs.

S. Douglas-Smith thinks that only he and Mrs. M.M. are entitled to opinions. I am here to tell him that he is wrong. If you want to see babbling nuts, S. Douglas-Smith seems to be the guy to go to.
--posted by cretin @ Saturday, July 19 2003, 22:57 pm EDT
Then this: in this blog, cretin used the word, or called persons f*ck face, ect over 27 times. Read for yourselves, I will not reprint all of the instances.
I think Mrs. M.M. should be banned for spewing obscenities...
--posted by cretin @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 9:58 am EDT
Which in his mind apparently justifies even more RACIAL slurs.
More ad hominem attacks from Chief Bigmouth.
--posted by cretin @ Sunday, July 20 2003, 10:11 am EDT
Now another smear tactic, lets call the judge biased…
I wonder if things would have turned out differently if the judge hadn't been a friend of the Hornstine family...
--posted by cretin@ Monday, July 21 2003, 14:16 pm ED
I respond to Wondering about calling this case a case about plagiarism… this is apparently cretin’s catylist…
I have watched this, and joined in, only to have my heritage, my name, my business, my veracity, and my integrity bantered about like it was nothing.

The TRO had nothing to do with plagiarism, alleged or otherwise.

In Discovery, should BH or the BOE point out that JFK was a plagiarist, or Martin Luther King, Jr., or Ted Kennedy, or George Washington, or God only knows how many sports writers and columnists? Should they point out that in his Doctorial Thesis, MLK, Jr. plagiarized over 60% of his writing? Should they point out that his "I Have a Dream" speech was lifted nearly word for word from a racist’s poem?

Or should they stick to the issues in the case?

BH has been tried in the court of public opinion, and she has lost. Up to this point, her Court of Law dalliances have been rather to her benefit.

Blair's plagiarism has cost her admission to Harvard, regardless of whether she withdrew, or Harvard rescinded her application. But her plagiarism is not in the domain of the case, and the School Board, upon using it as such, or using the information about it as justification to reconsider her school work if butting up against the fruit of the poisoned tree, and will most likely find itself battling that if they proceed along those lines.

Plagiarism was not one of the grounds the BOE used to defend its merit less case. It can not now be added after the fact.

The attacks on her family, its credibility, and the repeated assaults on her character, and the actions of the community did as much to create this situation as she did. She tried to do this without the TRO, and the board simply didn't want to give her what she had earned. The board changed the rules, and had them thrown back in their collective faces. Those are the facts, and it doesn't matter if you don't like them.

For wondering, who said this was a case about plagiarism, nothing could be further from the truth, it is not about plagiarism, it is about discrimination in the face of clear cut rules to the contrary. You have this habit of jumping up and saying she did this or did that, and to be sure, she plagiarized, but what she did has no bearing, is not relevant, and does not belong in a discussion about this case. The issue, the only issue was discrimination, not plagiarism, and it certainly isn't about who is more popular.

Now, until the facts change, if you all want to discuss the FACTS, so be it, until you discuss the FACTS, don't be surprised when you get your self electronically slapped over things that have no bearing in the case, and no basis in the discussion.
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, July 21 2003, 16:09 pm EDT
@ Monday, July 21 2003, 14:16 pm ED
The first look at my IP by Just Curious, gets this response from cretin. I had addressed how my IP is from OHIO on July 4, and frankly, had not this information been dragged up again, most, if not all of the rest of this assault on me would not have occurred.
Uh oh. You are going to get your head bitten off! He's on a network that is located in Ohio. Take cover, Just curious!!!

S.Douglas-Smith, I agree that this fiasco was about discrimination. We just disagree as to who was discriminated against.
--posted by cretin @ Monday, July 21 2003, 16:20 pm EDT
So here’s just curious, obviously he has access to IP information, and has traced mine. However, I didn’t take offense, I simply reposted that he had obviously not read my original post about IP addresses, how they can be traced, and how they can be foiled.
S D-S, have you recently moved, or gone on vacation?

I noticed that you posted that you've just gone kayaking down the Gunnison. That's certainly a lovely area--Colorado's just generally a beautiful state.

But from the looks of it, you're situated in Ohio.

Road trip?

--posted by Just curious @ Monday, July 21 2003, 16:16 pm EDT


Well Just Curious, as you have so astutely noted I have an Ohio IP, which was addressed in this blog some time ago.

I use a satellite to communicate to my office in Dayton Ohio, and that communication is then routed via servers for Time Warner Inc., in Cincinnati to where ever I am surfing at at the time. Because my IP trail if you will, starts in Ohio, you would think that, unless you had taken the time to read the post regarding IP's IP sharing, and various other IP information that came up long before you ever came along. However, so that you can avoid the hassle of looking for it, I have copied and pasted it here for you.

By the way, the Gunnison was wonderful.

below is the link to the first page of comments where you'll find the comment in question, however, like I said, I had addressed it long before you ever reared your head, read first, then we won't have to be bothered with redundant questions, and statements that have NO bearing on the issue at hand.

http://www.tow.com/photogallery/20030607_blair/comments.shtml

Here is the post:

'...Well, it was a thought...

Starbucks! (Insert stunned emoticon here). We have a Molly's Coffee and Beer, is that close enough? You have to go to Apen or Vail for a Starbucks around here, and I love my coffee, (even have Kona flown in from Hawaii), but I'm not driving for 3 flippen hours for a cup, unless, you two relent and take me up on my offer, then, heck, I can point out all the interesting geological formations on the way.

I want to point out a couple of things: 152.163.252.162 is the IP Address of Mrs. MM from Adam wayyyyyyyyyyyy back up there when he thought, (maybe still does) that several posters were actually posting from one location. A trace route on that IP address resolves to an AOL Server on the East Coast, specifically cache-RH02.proxy.aol.com an AOL server in Philly. Traveling through VA. to an AOL Transit Data Network ATDN. This is a broad band server that services the NJ area, Delaware, and parts of PA, North East Va, and Maryland. You can conduct a traceroute of this or any IP at http://visualroute.visualware.com/ and by entering the IP location you want to trace.

This is not an infallible test. Should anyone conduct a route trace on my IP, it resolves back to a Time Warner Broad Band Server in Cincinatti, Ohio. Of course I'm in Colorado so how is this possible? Simple, I use a satellite uplink from my home via DirectWay to link directly to my business servers in Ohio because that is where the company was founded. Because I use a ported address to my business, it appears that my souce is actually in Ohio. Since satellite broadband is in fact a wireless connection, the original hardwired server that it orginates from is in Ohio, and not in Colorado. What this means, is that while not many people have such connections, the fact of the matter is that it is possible to generally trace the location of a poster.

Given that Mrs. MM's IP is in the general vicinity of Moorestown it is likely that she is from that area. There are methods and expensive software that will resolve a host down to a local system, however firewalls and other protection software, and hardware make it difficult to finally resolve the location of a poster based on the IP address alone.

This information does however, partially invalidate Cretin's claim that Mrs. MM is from some other area, and it also tends to validate her claim that she is from Moorestown, or at least the general vicinity.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Friday, July 4 2003, 16:16 pm EDT..."
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Monday, July 21 2003, 19:14 pm EDT
Then I post regarding Kadri’s lack of discretion in his COURT DOCUMENTS:
The argument of credibility has no bearing on the case at hand, and in my understanding of the law, is not admissible under the definitions of compulsive discovery, or evidentiary disclosure. In a separate suit to rescind the valedictory, the board may be able to use the credibility issue, but under the narrow definition of the law in this case, as it pertains to this case, that is not likely, because if any parties credibility is at stake, I would say, much like Judge Wolfson did, that it is Kadri's. After all he got caught in a lie, or two dozen. He tried some fuzzy math to twist Blair’s' GPA, and was embarrassed in the proceeding for being aggressively and compulsively anti Blair Hornstine.

I don't know about you, but the least you could do is look at the facts, and address them, because regardless of what you think of Blair, denying what Kadri did is the same as excusing it. That's what you are doing. Great thing to teach the kids. Hey, kids, you know, you can lie about people and get away with it, it's okay, the school board president does it.

Kadri should be sued for defamation, and slander. And you should be ashamed for looking at only one side of the matter.
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 10:42 am EDT
Here it comes:
S.Douglas-Smith should be sued for defamation and slander. He has only looked at one side of the issue, and yet he maliciously accuses us of doing the same.
--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 11:06 am EDT
Unlike CambridgeMa, I have posted my entire response, which when taken in bits and pieces can be twisted to mean lots of things, but when taken in context AS IT WAS WRITTEN, can only be taken as an invitation to Cretin to either put up or shut up. That I mention attorneys in the first sentence is indicative that any action I deem to take would be legal in fact, form, and presentation. Misconstruing my words to mean otherwise is an obvious attempt by CambridgeMa to further inflame the situation.
Sue away Cretin, I have the where withall to defend, and attorneys you wouldn't believe, and they don't represent Mafia kingpins. Of course don't be surprised you simpering idiot, if I respond in kind, because if anything can be surely said, it is that you have slandered me repeatedly, maliciously, and without regard for any damage you may have done me.

Load up, big boy, I await service of your summons and complaint. Of course, it won't happen because like all cowards, you, when you get your face shoved in the sh*t you shovel, dry up and blow away.

It's not a secret who I am, Cretin, take you best damn shot. It is only fair though, to warn you, I'm a damn good shot in my own right, and I don't have any compunctions about standing up for me.

You're a lowlife, Cretin, you always will be. One day you'll wake up in the stench that surrounds you, and realize that you're nothing. On that day, you will do us all a favor, and just dissapear. Until then, I know how to avoid your stink.

I look forward to the day when I don't have to. So, like I said, bring it on big boy, take your best shot! When it's over, you'll beg me to relent, and on that day, you'll learn something my posts should already have proven: I'm relentless. I don't know mercy, and I don't give quarter. You will lose, and you will wish you'd never reared your idiotic head into this fray.

Remember, I don't care, I have money to burn, and it would do me nothing better than to see you go down in flames. Any questions, Cretin, is that clear enough for you, or do you need a guide to figure it out. You have done nothing but be an idiot from day one; on the final day, you will know the difference between reality, and the game you thought you had mastered.

Bring it on.
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:16 pm EDT
Cretins response further impugns my race, heritage and background, and insults my intelligence yet again. Interestingly, Cambridge remains silent about this attack.
Thank you, S.Douglas-Smith. You have proven my point perfectly.

I agree that you are a simpering idiot, a coward, and a lowlife. I am relieved that you have FINALLY realized the truth about yourself.

Now, shouldn't you be scalping innocent women and children? That is the only thing you are good for...
--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:36 pm EDT
I respond with an insult, childishly, however, as Cambridge has taken it upon himself to declare this post to contain threats, I have posted it’s entirety to show that again he has taken a sentence out of context to twist the obvious LEGAL nature of any such threat. You need an attorney, and I know where you live.
Cretin

When the monkey gave birth to you did it realize that you were going to turn out to be the reason for it's extinction?

I wish you would take me up on my offer to fly you out here. There are, after all, lots of steep cliffs you could accidentally fall off of.

Do us a favor, put yourself out of your misery you ignorant moron. I hear playing in traffic is detremental to your health, why don't you go play on an interstate.

As for your repeated attacks upon my heritage, be advised, I know more about you than you know about me. Don't be surprised to hear from certain of my people who find your kind of racism repugnant, and, in keeping with the best traditions of European legal standards, feel it is a violation of their civil rights.

In other words, you need an attorney, and I know where you live.
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:40 pm EDT
So Cretin now accuses me of being a chronic gambler, and encourages me to commit suicide. NO ONE SAYS JACK.
I'm a monkey? Wow, what an insult. You do realize that makes YOU a sewer rat. No matter what you say to me, remember that I will always be better than you. You are nothing more than a piece of filth.

Here's an idea for you. Why don't you start your car in your garage. And then take a nap. A real long nap. You won't be missed. On the contrary, there will be much celebration. Even your people will how pow wows.

Or you could just die of syphilis. Either way would be fine with me.

So why don't you get back to your casino. You are taking up valuable bandwidth.
--posted by cretin @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:48 pm EDT
At this point, I consider withdrawing completely from the blog: Adam has threatened us both with banishment, and I am tired of this fight. I specifically note that I refrain from posting any personal information, because it is not worth the effort, and I have legal methods of dealing with the slander, defamation, and racial attacks he has launched against me.
Mrs. MM,

Write me.

To the rest of you who read this blog. I have come to the conclusion that you don't want to debate the case, you just want to play sissy wars of words, and engage in backbiting and slander. I don't trade in bullshit, and I'll not start now.

As for people like Cretin, I think it's a shame that the First Amendment extends certain protections to that kind of filth. That he would have sold out his own people in the ghettos of Warsaw is obvious, such is his cowardly disposition, that he lives in a country secured by people of distinction is sad. It is a pity we can't pick and choose the citizenry we allow in this country.

I was tempted to post his home address, phone number, and identification here, as well as his license number, social security number, and other pieces of identifying information, but I refrain because that information is better suited to dealing with him on my terms, and I will.

I am sorry this thread has come to this, which is what his goal has been all along. It is a shame that Adam allowed him to return, and in so doing, created an environment where the truth will always be suppressed by the idiot who yells the loudest, is the most vulgar or repulsive, or who, in general, has no respect for any person or principle that we claim to adhere to in this country.

Frankly, if you people want to subscribe to his brand of deceit, hatred, and ignorance, you ultimately will have to decide how much of your humanity you were willing to sacrifice in order to follow this idiot into the very bowels of deprivation and ignorance.

Go in peace, but whatever you do, just go.
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 15:58 pm EDT
Then this pops up… seems I’m not the only one looking at IP’s or other personal information, and then publishing personal information, which I did not. No one says a single word about this. Not even the great defenders of right, Cambridge or Wondering.
totally off-topic ...

i checked out s-d-s website at: http://www.designwolf.com...and notice that the company: designwolf is in Beavercreek Ohio, referencing Steffe'n Douglas-Smith.

Curious, though, that when doing a reverse look-up on Google for the phone number listed it resolves to a "In H Cha" and "H M Herdle" of Dayton, OH.

A check of the whois database for the domain name also references back to
Designwolf Computer Systems, Stephen Smith, 3782 Skyline Drive, Beavercreek, OH 45432, US

At the SETI homepage the following is listed: "Designwolf ("Old geezer in Ohio seeking extra terrestrial encounter with other than little green men. Must have ...")" with a photograph presumably of S-D-S - http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/cgi?cmd=view_feedback&id=21157

There is a posting to the Columbine Anniversary Board from him at: http://www.columbineanniversary.com/boards/pictures/messages/1/1614.shtml

There is a touching tribute to the Shuttle Columbia disaster which he wrote at his website: http://www.designwolf.com/
--posted by curiousastothosewhohavebeenbickering @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 18:12 pm EDT
I don not respond with attacks or recriminations or concerns about the legality of looking at this information, or posting it.
This is exactly my point, you all will continue to beat a dead horse until you flay the skin from it. I have never said the company wasn't in B'creek, (Dayton is the closest big city)., I have said, funnily enough, that I am not. Gee... this repeated effort to somehow discredit me is old, pointless, has no basis in reality, or fact, and has no bearing on this blog, whatsoever. Get your heads out of your collective asses, and get on topic.

As to an apology, no longer amused, from me, there will not be one re: Cretin, he has done nothing whatsoever to merit one, and I find even his 'apology' to be lacking. He is no more a man, in my opinion, than someone like Saddam Hussein. So hey, don't be amused, I don't care, but don't expect to just liberally attack me without reverse input either. As for the information, not only is it real, it's there, and I do have it.

Why don't you all get on topic and we'll discuss that? If you can't do that, then take a page from Adam, and stop the personal attacks here. I respond, I don't start, or haven't you figured that out yet?
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 20:02 pm EDT

I find it interesting that it's okay for you people to pull these stunts, and then think "oh we got him"... The seti posting is oh, I don't know, about 4 years old, while I was still in Ohio, which I've never denied, and in fact have repeatedly stated. H M Cha was the holder of the phone number before the business, which as you know resolves to me, and H. Herdle is the maiden name of my wife. There is nothing nefarious about any of it. Do you have any more little bombs you'd like to hurl, or can we actually get back to the point of this thread?
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 20:11 pm EDT
I post this information regarding more twisting of the facts, instead of the complete story.
Things to know about me.

I don't have an agenda, I have an opinion.

I don't have the desire to distort the truth, either as I see it, or as I see it skewered.

I don't appreciate the personal attacks that have been basically ignored, and no one with any sense of self, or heritage should.

When I'm wrong, I say I'm wrong.

When I'm right, I'm relentless.

I think enough has been said about these topics. While you were looking, curious, did you notice the tributes to the 9-11 victims on my site? Did you notice the wealth of information about the systems we build? Did you notice the political page, my personal soap box?

The Seti page shows a 2002 date, which is when I believe they transferred an old account to my current account, and moved my profile there. The profile is about 4 years old.

Regarding Columbine, if you went to the first post of the thread, you would have noted that like this thread, I responded to personal attacks about me, when as I did there, I tried to return the thread to the victims of that senseless violence. There are several posts on that site, not just the one, and taken out of context, anyone could draw an unfavorable conclusion, but taken in sequence, I think it would be hard to do so. Ultimately, the person who attacked me did apologize to me, and that was the end of the debate. The difference here, before you all say that so and so apologized, is that I don't believe so and so means it, and I'm not interested in his half felt efforts to escape possible negative repercussions in this case.

My point is this, I have defended myself because to ignore the baseless attacks would have encouraged yet more of them. You have every right to disagree with my methods, and I encourage you to do so, but you do not have the right, nor do I, to simply attack without justification, and expect, or receive any quarter from a counter attack.

With that said, I retire, I've not the time, the desire, or the inclination to continue to play this childish little game of back biting, sniper posting. That you can find information about me is a pretty good indication that I am who I say I am, and that I indeed, have nothing to hide. Take it for what it's worth.

Adam, good luck with your blog, it's actually quite fun, and I enjoy your trailers, it's what got me here in the first place what seems like so very long ago.

Enjoy.

Das Vi.
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Tuesday, July 22 2003, 21:36 pm EDT

At this point I essentially retire from the thread. Cambridge and Wondering have their say, but they have both ignored the obvious about what has gone on here. I would suggest that at this point, they both consider their actions, and how they have actually added to a bad situation, and even made it more hostile than it had to be. As for legal remedy, should my attorneys feel there is recourse regarding what I consider defamation, harassment and racial attacks, then I will take it. I have that right.
Cretin, if you want to address this, do so, and if you actually have the integrity to accept your responsibility in this, I am inclined to drop it here. If you don’t then what happens at this point would be in the prevue of the law.

S. Douglas-Smith

The Truth shall set you free.

I’m sorry about the length of this post, but if certain folks are going to twist things, the least one can do is set the record straight.

--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 12:10 pm EDT

Adam, this is your site but...my opinion is that SDS is a seriously disturbed individual and probably the person who should be banned forever. Notice how when the board is quiet he just pops up and directs the conversation back to himself after having said good-bye twice already. In the posts that someone linked to re: the Columbine Anniv. Steffe'n/Steven was a Marine and widower. The personality was the same though as he spent multiple posts berating and bullying someone he assumed to be a teenager with similar threats. Cretin may have used profanity, and annoying posts but he knew when to quit and go have a life.

--posted by Do Not Feed The Trolls!! @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 12:53 pm EDT

after seeing a picture of a certain person's profile I am obligated to send the following link for your perusal.

http://www.mulletsgalore.com

sds is the man ;) sweet mullet!

--posted by roflmao @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 13:22 pm EDT

My two cents - if this blog continues to veer off course (as has been the case following certain "posters" who expend inordinate amounts of time and energy reposting perceived slights against themselves) I - and others - will likely abandon it. Invective is replacing meaningful discussion. If it continues, and if others think that meaningful discourse regarding the Blair Hornstine affair is of value and worth continuing, I suggest that Adam move this conversation to a "protected" thread where people need to log on...and know that their posts - and participation - is subject to editing and/or denial. The recommendations Clay Shirky makes for managing online group interaction in his "A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy" (http://shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html) seems applicable to the current state-of-affairs.

--posted by cambridgema @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 14:26 pm EDT

In the spirit of on-topic discussion, I'm going to attempt linkage - hope they work! Saw this story and later column combining Blair's story and this girl's story. The link is tenuous but interesting and certainly a better topic for discussion than...uh, let's just say poster's personalities. Discuss among yourselves...
http:www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/6289805.htm
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/columnists/monica_yant_Kinney/6304202.htm

Well, drat! What aren't they colored so you can click on them? Adam, if you are there can you fix that? Sorry, I don't know how to do this. If someone will tell me I'll do it right.

--posted by Amused from Afar @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 14:36 pm EDT

Here's the link from the last post:

http:www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/6289805.htm

and

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/columnists/monica_yant_Kinney/6304202.htm

--posted by Adam @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 14:37 pm EDT

Oops!

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/6289805.

--posted by Adam @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 14:37 pm EDT

Oh, never mind. They turn color when you post, at least one did. I'll do the other again.
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/6289805.htm

Think I left out two // the first time. You learn every day.

--posted by Amused @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 14:38 pm EDT

S. D-S:

Okay, you've had your say. Now please ignore what other people say about you in future posts. Just ignore them. We've heard your arguments and they have been recorded for posterity. There's no need to repeat yourself again.

Everyone else:

Please try to lay off of S. D-S's personal life. It will just cause this cycle of attack/defense to continue.

-adam

--posted by Adam @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 14:40 pm EDT

Wow, thanks Adam, you are super fast. Can you tell that this is the first message board I've ever been on? And yes, I'm a little older.

--posted by Amused @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 14:40 pm EDT

Does S D-S live in Colorado or Ohio?

" As to my existence, well, like most folks who work for a living, I pay my bills, and I play on my toys, and walk the dogs, and so on. The fact that I do it from a 333 acre estate in Colorado, on top of a mountain, with a view of Crested Butte from my enclosed swimming pool/recreation room, under 5,000+ square feet of the most beautiful cabin you can imagine is secondary to the rest of my reality."
--posted by S. Douglas-Smith @ Wednesday, June 25 2003, 18:47 pm EDT

--posted by Confused @ Wednesday, July 23 2003, 15:12 pm EDT

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